Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Add Another Ground
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Captain Pike
Samba Member


Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3327
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
Captain Pike is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:07 pm    Post subject: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

Slooo crank on a new battery w/a new starter. Ground, ground, ground. Fix the trans to chassis but add another.
Crusty old can 🥫
_________________
If You Build It______It Will Run
1959 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current.......................
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DuncanS
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4580
Location: New Hampshire
DuncanS is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dhaavers
Samba Member


Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7733
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
dhaavers is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:37 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

...and Duncan with the assist! You two were made for each other... Wink

- Dave
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"

<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dabaron
Samba Member


Joined: June 21, 2018
Posts: 2558
Location: Philly, mang
dabaron is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

dhaavers wrote:
...and Duncan with the assist! You two were made for each other... Wink


this forum is really a bunch of people that finish each others sentences.
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo

BiWerks Design, LLC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DuncanS
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4580
Location: New Hampshire
DuncanS is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

dabaron wrote:


this forum is really a bunch of people that finish each others sentences,
since we often have the same idea but with a slight twist.

Duncan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jimf909 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7400
Location: WA/ID
jimf909 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

These threads prompted me to add a 4 ga ground from the Zetec alternator to the starter to the body:

Alt. ground to starter...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Starter ground to battery...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Unfortunately, 9 months after installing these grounds and a year after installing a TDI starter with the WestyVentures adapter plate I'm still getting an occasional starter no-spin condition: there's a solid clunk (solenoid engaging) when the key is turned to start but the starter doesn't spin. It worked fine all winter in below 30*F temps but this week in 30-40*F temps in wet conditions the starter clunked but didn't spin and then after 1 - 5 clunks the starter spun and started the engine. I suspected the ignition switch but have switched between two different switches with the same clunk/no-spin condition (the spare ignition switch is in the speedo pod and the shroud is off so I swap the switches immediately on getting the no-spin condition).

At this point, I'm ready to replace the less than year old starter but welcome any ideas.

I guess this is a hi-jack given I just wanted to show the pics of the grounds I added.
_________________
- Jim

Abscate wrote:
Do not get killed, do not kill others.


Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
brickster
Samba Member


Joined: January 05, 2004
Posts: 503
Location: CO, USA
brickster is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

jimf909 wrote:
At this point, I'm ready to replace the less than year old starter but welcome any ideas.

Is the positive cable running from battery compartment still original?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DuncanS
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4580
Location: New Hampshire
DuncanS is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

Is the starter solenoid relayed? If not, do it in the next 45 seconds.

Duncan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member


Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9895
Location: Orbiting San Diego
crazyvwvanman is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

There are 2 voltage paths to the starter to make it crank.
The clunking is the sound of the ignition switch doing its job of powering the solenoid actuator with voltage from the switch, the low current path.
Your problem would likely be on the other larger current voltage path or within the starter itself.

The larger current voltage path is the large cable between the battery + post and the starter wiring stud.
The negative cable from the battery - post to the body under the pass seat is a critical part of this path.

You already addressed the other part of the main path, the ground between the starter and the body.
I would have preferred the other end of the added alternator ground run to the body instead of to the starter.
That way it would add to the starting ground for starting and then be a charging ground once the engine is running.

Mark



jimf909 wrote:
..... I'm still getting an occasional starter no-spin condition: there's a solid clunk (solenoid engaging) when the key is turned to start but the starter doesn't spin. It worked fine all winter in below 30*F temps but this week in 30-40*F temps in wet conditions the starter clunked but didn't spin and then after 1 - 5 clunks the starter spun and started the engine. I suspected the ignition switch but have switched between two different switches with the same clunk/no-spin condition (the spare ignition switch is in the speedo pod and the shroud is off so I swap the switches immediately on getting the no-spin condition).

At this point, I'm ready to replace the less than year old starter but welcome any ideas.

I guess this is a hi-jack given I just wanted to show the pics of the grounds I added.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member


Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12103
Location: Port Manteau
Zeitgeist 13 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

Why all the negativity? Don't forget to keep it positive as well.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


From an '84 ASI with an intermittent no/slow start issue. The clamp in the pic is shown from the bottom side, and none of this damage was visible when attached to the battery.
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?


Last edited by Zeitgeist 13 on Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sodo
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9517
Location: Western WA
Sodo is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

Captain Pike wrote:
Fix the trans to chassis but add another.


If the trans to chassis is 100% new (a new gearbox) then it will likely perform adequately over the vehicle's 10 year lifetime expectancy.
In spite of breaking key rules of "proper eqpt grounding".

That said, there's nothing logical about carrying it around, or the clutter.
I've kicked myself for not adding a real ground at starter problems 20 years ago. Wink

If your gearbox is "old", remove it.
It's positively on the negative side of contributions.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb


Last edited by Sodo on Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dobryan
Samba Member


Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16473
Location: Brookeville, MD
dobryan is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:

If your gearbox is "old", remove it.


Dang, going to be tough without a gearbox.... Wink
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sodo
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9517
Location: Western WA
Sodo is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
Sodo wrote:

If your gearbox is "old", remove it.


Dang, going to be tough without a gearbox.... Wink


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Tell me about removing a gearbox..... (not fun, but luckily I had a spare).

But yeah that trans ground won't cause any trouble as long as you have added a "proper ground".

But on a well-kept van, it adds clutter and looks funny, like a relic.
An oversight from back in the day before it was exposed as an improper ground.
Grounding from the opposite end of a gearbox? Jeez louieeez!
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jimf909 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7400
Location: WA/ID
jimf909 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

brickster wrote:
jimf909 wrote:
At this point, I'm ready to replace the less than year old starter but welcome any ideas.

Is the positive cable running from battery compartment still original?


I'm guessing that it is. I've read a few threads on replacing the pos. battery cable and that is probably in my future, but the new starter is suspect too.

crazyvwvanman wrote:

Your problem would likely be on the other larger current voltage path or within the starter itself.



I'm beginning to suspect the starter. The clunk/no-spin condition began after installing the TDI starter, it never once occurred with the crusty old starter that I replaced because it looked old and I wanted to use Karl's shiny adapter that had been sitting on the shelf.


crazyvwvanman wrote:

I would have preferred the other end of the added alternator ground run to the body instead of to the starter. That way it would add to the starting ground for starting and then be a charging ground once the engine is running.

Mark



Hmmm, okay. It seems that can still be added.

DuncanS wrote:
Is the starter solenoid relayed? If not, do it in the next 45 seconds.

Duncan


Your "add a relay" and Sodo's "change your trans oil" are beginning to sound like "eat your vegetables" so now I'm resisting like a stubborn child. Just kidding. Laughing Laughing Laughing
_________________
- Jim

Abscate wrote:
Do not get killed, do not kill others.


Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DuncanS
Samba Member


Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4580
Location: New Hampshire
DuncanS is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

I don't see anywhere measurement of the voltage at the starter while cranking. This is the best way to discover any battery positive to starter wire/terminal connection. That's assuming the battery is good.

Take the positive off the battery and run a jumper cable directly to the starter motor. That may take some jiggling as often the teeth of the jumper clips don't give very much contact area. If starter works as it's supposed to, then your problem is in the positive cable from terminal to terminal.

Check ohms between the starter motor case and the negative battery terminal at the battery. Put the neg jumper directly to the starter motor case and see if that makes a difference.

In doing all this, also add a new ground directly from the starter motor to the body nearby, relay the ignition/start solenoid. And clean the livin' bejazus out of every ground and terminal. Then add a dielectric grease to protect them from grunge.

Duncan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sodo
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9517
Location: Western WA
Sodo is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

jimf909 wrote:

Your "add a relay" and Sodo's "change your trans oil" are beginning to sound like "eat your vegetables" so now I'm resisting like a stubborn child. Just kidding. Laughing

Its stubbornness of the elderly van.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb


Last edited by Sodo on Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
brickster
Samba Member


Joined: January 05, 2004
Posts: 503
Location: CO, USA
brickster is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground Reply with quote

You can also test the positive battery cable resistance with some extensions added to your multimeter probes. This is copied directly from Dave's Volvo Page:

Quote:
With your car running (it's ideal to place your test probes before starting the car to avoid sticking your hands in the belts, etc.) and multi-meter set to DC VOLTAGE, place one probe on the B+ terminal of the alternator, and place the other multi-meter probe on the positive battery terminal. You may need wire extensions to reach both. Any voltage reading greater than 0.3V should cause concern. Anything less than 0.1V is ideal. If 0.3V or greater is measured, repeat this test between battery positive and starter positive, and again between starter positive and alternator B+ to narrow down the faulty high-resistance cable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.