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Captain Pike Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003 Posts: 3327 Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:07 pm Post subject: Add Another Ground |
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Slooo crank on a new battery w/a new starter. Ground, ground, ground. Fix the trans to chassis but add another.
Crusty old can 🥫 _________________ If You Build It______It Will Run
1959 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current....................... |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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dhaavers Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 7733 Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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...and Duncan with the assist! You two were made for each other...
- Dave _________________ 86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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dabaron Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018 Posts: 2558 Location: Philly, mang
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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dhaavers wrote: |
...and Duncan with the assist! You two were made for each other...
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this forum is really a bunch of people that finish each others sentences. _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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dabaron wrote: |
this forum is really a bunch of people that finish each others sentences, |
since we often have the same idea but with a slight twist.
Duncan |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7400 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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These threads prompted me to add a 4 ga ground from the Zetec alternator to the starter to the body:
Alt. ground to starter...
Starter ground to battery...
Unfortunately, 9 months after installing these grounds and a year after installing a TDI starter with the WestyVentures adapter plate I'm still getting an occasional starter no-spin condition: there's a solid clunk (solenoid engaging) when the key is turned to start but the starter doesn't spin. It worked fine all winter in below 30*F temps but this week in 30-40*F temps in wet conditions the starter clunked but didn't spin and then after 1 - 5 clunks the starter spun and started the engine. I suspected the ignition switch but have switched between two different switches with the same clunk/no-spin condition (the spare ignition switch is in the speedo pod and the shroud is off so I swap the switches immediately on getting the no-spin condition).
At this point, I'm ready to replace the less than year old starter but welcome any ideas.
I guess this is a hi-jack given I just wanted to show the pics of the grounds I added. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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brickster Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 503 Location: CO, USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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jimf909 wrote: |
At this point, I'm ready to replace the less than year old starter but welcome any ideas. |
Is the positive cable running from battery compartment still original? |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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Is the starter solenoid relayed? If not, do it in the next 45 seconds.
Duncan |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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There are 2 voltage paths to the starter to make it crank.
The clunking is the sound of the ignition switch doing its job of powering the solenoid actuator with voltage from the switch, the low current path.
Your problem would likely be on the other larger current voltage path or within the starter itself.
The larger current voltage path is the large cable between the battery + post and the starter wiring stud.
The negative cable from the battery - post to the body under the pass seat is a critical part of this path.
You already addressed the other part of the main path, the ground between the starter and the body.
I would have preferred the other end of the added alternator ground run to the body instead of to the starter.
That way it would add to the starting ground for starting and then be a charging ground once the engine is running.
Mark
jimf909 wrote: |
..... I'm still getting an occasional starter no-spin condition: there's a solid clunk (solenoid engaging) when the key is turned to start but the starter doesn't spin. It worked fine all winter in below 30*F temps but this week in 30-40*F temps in wet conditions the starter clunked but didn't spin and then after 1 - 5 clunks the starter spun and started the engine. I suspected the ignition switch but have switched between two different switches with the same clunk/no-spin condition (the spare ignition switch is in the speedo pod and the shroud is off so I swap the switches immediately on getting the no-spin condition).
At this point, I'm ready to replace the less than year old starter but welcome any ideas.
I guess this is a hi-jack given I just wanted to show the pics of the grounds I added. |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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Why all the negativity? Don't forget to keep it positive as well.
From an '84 ASI with an intermittent no/slow start issue. The clamp in the pic is shown from the bottom side, and none of this damage was visible when attached to the battery. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?
Last edited by Zeitgeist 13 on Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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Captain Pike wrote: |
Fix the trans to chassis but add another. |
If the trans to chassis is 100% new (a new gearbox) then it will likely perform adequately over the vehicle's 10 year lifetime expectancy.
In spite of breaking key rules of "proper eqpt grounding".
That said, there's nothing logical about carrying it around, or the clutter.
I've kicked myself for not adding a real ground at starter problems 20 years ago.
If your gearbox is "old", remove it.
It's positively on the negative side of contributions. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16473 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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dobryan wrote: |
Sodo wrote: |
If your gearbox is "old", remove it.
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Dang, going to be tough without a gearbox.... |
Tell me about removing a gearbox..... (not fun, but luckily I had a spare).
But yeah that trans ground won't cause any trouble as long as you have added a "proper ground".
But on a well-kept van, it adds clutter and looks funny, like a relic.
An oversight from back in the day before it was exposed as an improper ground.
Grounding from the opposite end of a gearbox? Jeez louieeez! _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7400 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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brickster wrote: |
jimf909 wrote: |
At this point, I'm ready to replace the less than year old starter but welcome any ideas. |
Is the positive cable running from battery compartment still original? |
I'm guessing that it is. I've read a few threads on replacing the pos. battery cable and that is probably in my future, but the new starter is suspect too.
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Your problem would likely be on the other larger current voltage path or within the starter itself.
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I'm beginning to suspect the starter. The clunk/no-spin condition began after installing the TDI starter, it never once occurred with the crusty old starter that I replaced because it looked old and I wanted to use Karl's shiny adapter that had been sitting on the shelf.
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
I would have preferred the other end of the added alternator ground run to the body instead of to the starter. That way it would add to the starting ground for starting and then be a charging ground once the engine is running.
Mark
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Hmmm, okay. It seems that can still be added.
DuncanS wrote: |
Is the starter solenoid relayed? If not, do it in the next 45 seconds.
Duncan |
Your "add a relay" and Sodo's "change your trans oil" are beginning to sound like "eat your vegetables" so now I'm resisting like a stubborn child. Just kidding. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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I don't see anywhere measurement of the voltage at the starter while cranking. This is the best way to discover any battery positive to starter wire/terminal connection. That's assuming the battery is good.
Take the positive off the battery and run a jumper cable directly to the starter motor. That may take some jiggling as often the teeth of the jumper clips don't give very much contact area. If starter works as it's supposed to, then your problem is in the positive cable from terminal to terminal.
Check ohms between the starter motor case and the negative battery terminal at the battery. Put the neg jumper directly to the starter motor case and see if that makes a difference.
In doing all this, also add a new ground directly from the starter motor to the body nearby, relay the ignition/start solenoid. And clean the livin' bejazus out of every ground and terminal. Then add a dielectric grease to protect them from grunge.
Duncan |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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jimf909 wrote: |
Your "add a relay" and Sodo's "change your trans oil" are beginning to sound like "eat your vegetables" so now I'm resisting like a stubborn child. Just kidding. |
Its stubbornness of the elderly van. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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brickster Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 503 Location: CO, USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Add Another Ground |
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You can also test the positive battery cable resistance with some extensions added to your multimeter probes. This is copied directly from Dave's Volvo Page:
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With your car running (it's ideal to place your test probes before starting the car to avoid sticking your hands in the belts, etc.) and multi-meter set to DC VOLTAGE, place one probe on the B+ terminal of the alternator, and place the other multi-meter probe on the positive battery terminal. You may need wire extensions to reach both. Any voltage reading greater than 0.3V should cause concern. Anything less than 0.1V is ideal. If 0.3V or greater is measured, repeat this test between battery positive and starter positive, and again between starter positive and alternator B+ to narrow down the faulty high-resistance cable. |
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