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BugMan114 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007 Posts: 3744 Location: Ellenwood, GA
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: CV joint bolts |
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howdy yall. yesterday i was driving on the highway at about 70 and started hearing a wierd clank sound periodically, and thought i ran something over, and today when i went to back out of the driveway, i heard a loud POW sound. turnsout, all the CV bolts came loose, except for one, and broke when i tried to back out of the driveway. the reason i guess was cause i didn't torque them down when i removed them, and that was 3 months ago. three long painful months ago. 3 months of burnouts, flooring it at every stop light, and doughnuts in my yard. also the occasional mud boggin.
anyhoo. i want to replace them all and bought some grade 10 bolts, the exact same length and thread, but instead of the annoying 12 point tri-square shit, i bought the ones you use allen wrenches on. My question is, are these bolts strong enough? has anyone had any problems with them. also should i use lock washers with them? and lastly what should i torque them down to. i read different posts and some said 25ft.lbs., and others said 35 ft.lbs. what should i torque them to?
thanks _________________ 1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13848 Location: White Mountains Arizona
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure about bolt grading but most likely, clean up everything and put some lock tight on them .
Metric Class Marks on Head Material Tensile Strength Yield Strength
N/mm2 psi N/mm2 psi
8.8 8.8 Steel 800 116,000 640 93,000
10.9 10.9 Steel 1040 151,000 940 136,000
12.9 12.9 Alloy Steel 1220 177,000 1100 160,000
A2-70 A2-70 302 Stainless 700 102,000 450 65,000
A4-80 A4-80 316 Stainless 800 116,000 600 87,000 _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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runamoc Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006 Posts: 5601 Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: |
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The '6 point' bolts will work. Black ones are 'hard' 10.0, the blue ones are harder, 12.0. Don't use any chrome looking ones, they are 8.8 or lower. Now that all of your bolts fell out, you will need to find those torque, humm, things. Those curved metal things that have two holes in them for two bolts. 3 for each joint. As for washers, the OG had serrated washers, I've used external star washers as a replacement. AND 25ft/lbs is correct for your bug. |
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fusername Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2006 Posts: 2897 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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25 to 33, depending on which source you trust. I go w/ 30 cause it is divisible by 3 AND 5 _________________ [email protected]
Need something custom bent up? shoot me an email, maybe we can make it work!
FORSALE: Thrust cut T4 and 1.9 main bearings
obnoxiousblue wrote: |
Maybe Ben Pon's ghost comes and vomits NOS stampings for your bus, but not mine! |
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BugMan114 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007 Posts: 3744 Location: Ellenwood, GA
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Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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so the black grade 10 bolts should be fine? what were the stock origional bolts? and what do you think about regular lock washers? I went to the local VW shop, and he sold me some of the two hole washer plate things. I just gotta swap out the stub axle, since the bolt that broke off, left an impossible-to-get-to piece stuck inside. _________________ 1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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bugninva Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004 Posts: 8858 Location: sound it out.
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Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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the piece of the stud is not usually impossible to get out.. once the bolt breaks the piece isn't held tight anymore... I've done the same thing you hve done before, and i just drilled into the piece of the stud, then kind of jammed the drillbit and it twisted it on through and out the other side... I have had many of those bolts come loose over the years, even when torqued with loctite... I started dabbing a little RTV on the bolts and have never had another one come loose... _________________
[email protected] wrote: |
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26325 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: |
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BugMan114 wrote: |
so the black grade 10 bolts should be fine? what were the stock origional bolts? and what do you think about regular lock washers? |
I looked through my various Bentleys looking for that. Finally found a hardness rating in the Type 3, under the Automatic transmission section. Hardness was 10K, torqued to 25 lb-ft.
I'm surprised the local shop couldn't sell you some of the serrated washers, I know the shop I used to work for, we had a bunch of them rolling around the bottom of the good-used CV hardware box. I don't think I'd want to use a split type lock washer if I couldn't get a serrated style. I'd go with a wave or a flat instead. |
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BugMan114 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007 Posts: 3744 Location: Ellenwood, GA
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Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: |
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oh shit. why wouldn't you use the split type locking washers? would that make them come undone or something? i already got the whole thing together, and drove it a few miles already. Do you think it will be a problem? are those serated washers supposed to prevent the bolts from turning or something, like it diggs into the long two bolt washer, and the bolt or something? Also i torqued them down to 35ft.lbs. think that might be to tight, should i loosen them to 25 or 30? _________________ 1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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runamoc Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006 Posts: 5601 Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
why wouldn't you use the split type locking washers |
Maybe it has to do with them being between to hard surfaces. Won't get a 'bite' to lock the bolt in. You will probably be OK. Should have gotten those external star washers as plan B instead. The hardness of the bolts can stand 35ft/lbs so ride on, dude. The main thing with toques is that they are all the same. Not over-tight is important too, but all the same.... |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31379 Location: Hot Arizona
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ap_sand Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008 Posts: 249 Location: Woodinville, WA
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Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Split type washers have fewer "edges" to grip. Because of their "split" construction, if they fail, instead of a "tooth" falling out and leaving the rest of the washer intact, a major chunk falls out followed by the remaing piece. The bolt is then pre-loostened by the thickness of the washer.
Preferred lock washer from best down, high torque/load reversal 1) external tooth star 2) internal tooth star (easier to handle) 3) belleville or wave washer (heavy duty, like gland nut washer) 4) last choice - split.
For low torque, wave washer.
For where you don't want to mar the primary surface i.e. against aluminum, etc, put a good quality, flat wahser against the surface with the lock washer between it and the head of the fastener. The washer needs to present a good cantact patch on the surface to transfer the locking force from the lock washer to the surface via friction.
The above is standard aircraft practice based on decades of (sometimes sad) experience.
Andrew |
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BugMan114 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007 Posts: 3744 Location: Ellenwood, GA
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Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Ahh, i see. so the teeth doo help in digging into the surfaces.
Also, the lock washers i got fit perfectly on the bolt, almost like it was made for it. it was EXACT. in fact sometimes it would snag on a wee bit of metal sticking out on the bolt (left over from the manufacturing process), and the washer would go all the way down unless i put some force on it, then it would slide all the way down. so there was absolutely NO play. i actually bought 48 of them, to do my 74 super (the one we're talking about now), and my benz bug, since that is the one i will get running next.
today i spent damn near all day driving on the highway, going around 75-80, for 1 hour periods. and of course, flooring it on every stoplight like i always do. even the occasional burnout. Anyway, i checked the torque when i got home, and none of them backed out at all, they were all still at 35 lbs. I'll check the torque again later this week. _________________ 1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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mnussbau Samba Member
Joined: August 26, 2006 Posts: 4589 Location: Central Maryland
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Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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The Bentley manual says the lockwashers are not required and are no longer used. _________________ Mike
Sold my sedan
Parts... |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26325 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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BugMan114 wrote: |
Anyway, i checked the torque when i got home, and none of them backed out at all, they were all still at 35 lbs. I'll check the torque again later this week. |
I very much doubt they'll come loose at 35. Factory was 25. It wasn't til the watercooled models came out that they went up to 33 on the torque, those are the ones I think that don't have any washers. I've never known one properly torqued at 25 with a lock washer to come loose, nor the other kind. |
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mikemck Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2006 Posts: 306
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone tried the locking CV joint bolts that Aircooled.net sells?
They seem a little expensive at 49.95 for 12. But, it would be nice to not have to worry about them coming loose. It would be nice to know what they look like. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26325 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't seen those before. I think I was like racing or offroading my car, I might be worried enough to try something like that. Otherwise I'd not be concerned. |
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runamoc Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006 Posts: 5601 Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Has anyone tried the locking CV joint bolts that Aircooled.net sells? They seem a little expensive at 49.95 for 12 |
That's close to a hundred bucks for both sides.. For that, I'd drill holes in 'em and run safety wire. |
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