Help! 1987 Vanagon dies and then won't crank...Battery good

[aeromech]

A friend called me tonight and said his 1987 vanagon died on him while cruising around the beach here in San Diego. It wasn't hot and he had only driven a few miles (he lives near the beach). The engine quit and then wouldn't crank but the headlights work so the battery has good power. I rotated the engine with a wrench and it turned over easily. I had him attempt a crank and there were no sounds at all (clicking/grinding). Does the vanagon have some type of fuse that could have blown that would cause the starter to fail as well as make the engine quit? Or something else. Thanks in advance.

[aeromech]

Update: I've had a late dinner and after reading some on Thesamba I went out in the dark and checked a couple things first hand. 1st, the dash lights do not illuminate when I turn on the key. The headlights do not come on when I turn them on. The running lights do come on but seem dim. So I slid the drivers seat forward and looked at the battery. It seems brand new but I haven't spoken to my friend about the age of it. Something that does make me curious is that there are two smaller red wires coming off the positive clamp and one of them goes to what looks like a relay. The relay is wrapped in black electrical tape and is burned through along one wire so something got hot. What does that relay do?
This pic shows the burn through

Here's the area

Here's the relay

[vwtopia]

I'm guessing here but something to think about. I believe you are looking at an auxillary battery since you said it is under the driver's seat. Looking at your picture I do not see a heavy cable on the positive side. I have an 84 Vanagon and the main battery is under the passenger seat. This would make sense with the relay for the charging of the auxillary battery.

[morymob]

cranking batt under pass seat, is it actually charged/good? clean cable conn even if they look good as theyget a black coating on posts/cable end and lose connection.If ok time to check wiring ,cable and small wire to starter solenoid, small wire which pulls sol do fall off or loose connection. If ok go under and jumpersmall wire to batt cable for a second and starter should run,MAKE SURE out of gear first.If ok need to trace small wire back to ign sw and a possible bad ign sw. If u have a test light u can unhook small wire from starter sol and clip light to wire and to ground-have someone hole ign sw to start position and see if it lights up,if dim a bad conn somewhere ,no lite -open ckt,a quick test, can do same with a meter.

[aeromech]

It's the next morning and I've been thinking about it overnight. Right now I'm leaning towards a bad alternator. I haven't done any checking on the vehicle but thinking about what I found last night it sounds right, i.e. engine dies = electricric fuel pump had quit because the alternator stopped charging and the battery finally dropped down too low. No crank = almost dead battery. No headlights or dash lights = dead battery. Parking lights worked = can't figure that one out yet. Plan of attack when I get home from work = pull start battery (under passenger seat) and place on charge. After a couple hours hook battery up and try it out. Alternately, jump battery and try a start. Question, before jumping the battery can I hurt anything by doing a jump start, i.e. fuel injection brain?
Thanks for your helpful comments.

[aeromech]

Update: Tonight I put in a known good battery under the passenger seat. I cleaned all the cables and posts. When I turn on the lights I get the dash lights and running lights with the key on but no status lights. If I pull back on the turn signal switch I get status lights and head lights until I release. The key will still not crank the engine but I went under and cranked the starter using a screw driver across the terminals so I have good voltage to the starter. I'm thinking it's an (unknown to me) fuse or relay that's blown. I need advice... please.

[aeromech]

Thursday morning update: Thinking about the problem over night I'm now guessing that it's a blown batt cutout relay (the burned one above). This makes sense for the following reason. The purpose of the relay is to isolate the start batt from the aux batt. When the relay failed it would not allow start batt voltage to go to the ignition system. I could check this by bypassing the relay or I can try to locate a replacement relay and give it a shot. Next course of action is to locate a relay.

[Perales]

Why not start by just disconnecting the whole auxiliary battery setup and see if you can run. That will at least narrow it down a bit.
_________________
-- 1987 Westfalia automatic (Captain Vino)

[aeromech]

[Perales]

The relay is only used between the two batteries. With only one (starter) battery in use, the relay is out of the loop and should have no effect at all. I suspect that the problem is elsewhere. Bad grounds perhaps or ignition switch.
_________________
-- 1987 Westfalia automatic (Captain Vino)

[aeromech]

[Perales]

This is the part that fails and it is not uncommon for it to go bad.
Do a SEARCH for Ignition Switch. There is discussion on how to replace the part.

http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_428_145/ignition_switch___electrical_portion.html
_________________
-- 1987 Westfalia automatic (Captain Vino)

[aeromech]

[Perales]

You can bypass the switch and try hotwiring it first to see if that is the problem:

Simply pull the plastic shroud off the column and remove the big black terminal plug off the switch.

Now put a jumper between the large red wire and the solid black wire (a bent paper clip works great). You should hear the fuel pump run at this point.

If you hear the fuel pump, leave that first jumper (large red to black) in place and place another jumper between the large red wire and the red/white wire. This is your starter wire.

The engine should turn over at this point. If the engine starts, remove the big red to red/white jumper immediately. If you don't remove this jumper, the starter will continue to run just like holding the key in the start position.
_________________
-- 1987 Westfalia automatic (Captain Vino)

[aeromech]

[Perales]

[aeromech]

Thursday night update: The Chargers are winning! Oh, back to VW's.... I checked the ignition switch and found the connector burned. See pic.

I replaced the start switch and crimped new spade connectors onto the wires and then was able to start the Vanagon. No smoke but the battery idiot light is on. Either I mis-wired the start switch or the alternator is bad which might have caused the original problem to being with.

Tomorrow I will continue troubleshooting the problem by first double checking my start switch connections and then running the engine and checking the alternator output. I suppose it's possible for the voltage regulator to fail causing the original problem as well as failing the alternator. Any comments?

Thanks for the help so far. Your ideas lead me to the start switch.

[tencentlife]

Since you had a problem at the battery combiner relay, and now the alternator idiot light is on, try disconnecting any blue wire on the battery relay, then look to see if the idiot light has gone out, with the engine running. Rev it once or twice.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[aeromech]

[crazyvwvanman]

It is just a standard relay, about $6. Look for a 40amp 4 leg relay or 30/40amp if 5 legs.

Where in SanDiego are you guys?

Mark

Thanks for that, I'll do it first thing. The owner is planning on replacing the relay. I have a question though. Is this relay known as the battery cut out relay as well as the refrigerator cutout relay? Is so, I can get one through the dealer for $50+ from Texas (I'm in San Diego) or can I get the aux battery kit from Bus Depot which comes with a generic relay for $24? Are they interchangeable? Last note: the battery idiot light stays on whether the aux battery is connected or not.

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