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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 3983
Location: Rancho Penasquitos/ San Diego CA
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 Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: Engine rebuild time |
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alrighty.
earlier in the week, while chasing down issues with my car, I discovered that my TPS was bad. Well, Since I had the engine out to paint my exhaust and for a general cleaning, I removed the tins to inspect a spark plug hole that i remembered being a little hard to install the plug in last time, it wasn't a big deal, just it felt a little tighter than the others.
anyway, i remove the cylinder tin and lo and behold, I have some huge cracks in the top of the cylinder head around the mounting nuts. the gap of the crack is bigger than 1/16 of an inch in some places. i'll post pictures later.
my theory at this point is that my failed TPS caused things to get too hot and i warped the head. subsequent driving lead the warpage to develop into a crack. At this point, i dont think the crack goes into the ports, but i don't know for sure, its just my guess. eitherway, its only a matter of time before it does crack all the way through.
which leads me to a juncture: i have the engine down to the long block anyway, im going to need to replace the heads, which means replacing the pushrod tubes and cylinder rings, and if im already that far I might as well go all the way and rebuild the whole damn thing since I've been meaning to do it anyway.
so now the questions begin.
I want to go a 1776 on my next engine. do I need to have the case and/or heads machined to do this?
obviously ill have to get the 1776 pistons and cylinders, and possibly get larger injectors or bump up the pressure.
I know i need to stick to a stock cam-- can this be done with a 1776? what modifications, if any, have to be made to the other engine components?
valves and heads: I have a pair of (hopefully) undamaged but used FI cylinder heads. Aside from the cleaning and any machine work they would need, should i have anything else done to them? what size valves should I ask for? I want to make sure that i have the proper valving for FI and mileage but i dont know if its compatible with a larger displacement-- if its not i'll just go stock.
pushrods-- would it be worth going to the chomoly or whatever ones that you set the valve gap to "0"?
lifters: what do you suggest for long life and reliability?
clutch and flywheel are new, obviously ill have to add a new front main seal.
is it worth making my valve covers vented and all that?
im 50 50 on whether im going to add an external oil filter. I change my oil so often I don't think I need it, but I wanted experts opinions on the matter.
are there any things you guys can think of that I'm missing here? I want this engine done right, so im having the machine work outsourced to a reputable shop, but I'll be doing the actual build myself. This is my first time doing a complete 100% home build, so I wanted to know what special tools I might need that I dont already have, as well as what greases, lubricants, etc. I have feeler gauges, digital calipers ( a good brand) and i'll probably pick up a micrometer.
finally-- for anyone who's done a rebuild like this before-- what parts can I re-use safely with a 1776 (if they need a resurfacing or whatever thats fine) and what things should I absolutely buy new?
thanks all. its been a real kick in the ass today since im going home to SLO tomorrow and thought I'd have the car done. one step forward, 5 steps back.
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71 Squareback- Fuel Injected!
70 Ghia- cool cruiser
74 Bay - three bench seats!
TOOB Member #3
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bon2198
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Joined: August 04, 2008
Posts: 1968
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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you could just buy a new longblock from somewhere (i reccomend mofoco) and use all your "accessories" from your old motor.
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1970 VW Beetle 1776cc MOFOCO w/hydraulic lifters, 042 heads and dual dellorto's
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 3983
Location: Rancho Penasquitos/ San Diego CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| bon2198 wrote: | | you could just buy a new longblock from somewhere (i reccomend mofoco) and use all your "accessories" from your old motor. |
I could- but I need to save money, and I want it done right. I trust myself more than any shop, and I've done builds from the pistons and cylinders upwards, but always stockers. its not too much of a stretch for me to go the whole 9 yards. I save on the labor so I don't have to cheap out on parts.
_________________
71 Squareback- Fuel Injected!
70 Ghia- cool cruiser
74 Bay - three bench seats!
TOOB Member #3
There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it over.
| Jake Raby wrote: | | I didn't mention it because someone would say it doesn't matter. Every fucking thing matters. |
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Nater
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blankmange 
Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004
Posts: 8616
Location: MidCoast DDB (bloßer Stahl)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: | | bon2198 wrote: | | you could just buy a new longblock from somewhere (i reccomend mofoco) and use all your "accessories" from your old motor. |
I could- but I need to save money, and I want it done right. I trust myself more than any shop, and I've done builds from the pistons and cylinders upwards, but always stockers. its not too much of a stretch for me to go the whole 9 yards. I save on the labor so I don't have to cheap out on parts. |
talk to Russ Wolfe -- he built my 1776 and it's awesome...
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| Quote: | | i got of bed this AM, preheated the oven, went back. got back up, put the scones in and went back to bed. burned my nipple on the oven door. |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 3983
Location: Rancho Penasquitos/ San Diego CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| blankmange wrote: | | JSMskater wrote: | | bon2198 wrote: | | you could just buy a new longblock from somewhere (i reccomend mofoco) and use all your "accessories" from your old motor. |
I could- but I need to save money, and I want it done right. I trust myself more than any shop, and I've done builds from the pistons and cylinders upwards, but always stockers. its not too much of a stretch for me to go the whole 9 yards. I save on the labor so I don't have to cheap out on parts. |
talk to Russ Wolfe -- he built my 1776 and it's awesome... |
yeah thats who I'd like to get advice from, and from Tram and anyone else whos "been there done that"-- thanks glenn for moving the thread back to the T3 forum! 
_________________
71 Squareback- Fuel Injected!
70 Ghia- cool cruiser
74 Bay - three bench seats!
TOOB Member #3
There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it over.
| Jake Raby wrote: | | I didn't mention it because someone would say it doesn't matter. Every fucking thing matters. |
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blankmange
Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004
Posts: 8616
Location: MidCoast DDB (bloßer Stahl)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: | | blankmange wrote: | | JSMskater wrote: | | bon2198 wrote: | | you could just buy a new longblock from somewhere (i reccomend mofoco) and use all your "accessories" from your old motor. |
I could- but I need to save money, and I want it done right. I trust myself more than any shop, and I've done builds from the pistons and cylinders upwards, but always stockers. its not too much of a stretch for me to go the whole 9 yards. I save on the labor so I don't have to cheap out on parts. |
talk to Russ Wolfe -- he built my 1776 and it's awesome... |
yeah thats who I'd like to get advice from, and from Tram and anyone else whos "been there done that"-- thanks glenn for moving the thread back to the T3 forum! |
lemme tell ya, spending a long weekend with Russ at my house, uninstalling the old and installing the new engine, plus connecting, etc... was the opportunity of a lifetime...
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| Quote: | | i got of bed this AM, preheated the oven, went back. got back up, put the scones in and went back to bed. burned my nipple on the oven door. |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 19743
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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I still have one set of 90.5 p/c's left.
I could do a set of heads for you, and you could have Rimco do your case.
You would want to do case inserts, and a line bore on the case. I could do that but I have to send cases to Rimco for the machining for the 90.5 cylinders and the heads.
Reuse your old cam and lifters if they look good.
Do it yourself.
Yes, I would love to have your money for the rebuild, but I do not know what is happening with my health the next few months. A set of heads, I could do, but I am not sure about a complete engine.
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wolfman's brother
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2003
Posts: 1149
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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I thought rimco shut down?
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69SquareGuy
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2004
Posts: 508
Location: Orange, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| last i heard the building was bought but rimco is renting it from them? something along those lines... |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 2638
Location: El Cajon, California
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: well. F*ck. Engine rebuild time. |
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| JSMskater wrote: | alrighty.
earlier in the week, while chasing down issues with my car, I discovered that my TPS was bad. Well, Since I had the engine out to paint my exhaust and for a general cleaning, I removed the tins to inspect a spark plug hole that i remembered being a little hard to install the plug in last time, it wasn't a big deal, just it felt a little tighter than the others.
anyway, i remove the cylinder tin and lo and behold, I have some huge cracks in the top of the cylinder head around the mounting nuts. the gap of the crack is bigger than 1/16 of an inch in some places. i'll post pictures later.
my theory at this point is that my failed TPS caused things to get too hot and i warped the head. subsequent driving lead the warpage to develop into a crack. At this point, i dont think the crack goes into the ports, but i don't know for sure, its just my guess. eitherway, its only a matter of time before it does crack all the way through.
which leads me to a juncture: i have the engine down to the long block anyway, im going to need to replace the heads, which means replacing the pushrod tubes and cylinder rings, and if im already that far I might as well go all the way and rebuild the whole damn thing since I've been meaning to do it anyway.
so now the questions begin.
I want to go a 1776 on my next engine. do I need to have the case and/or heads machined to do this?
obviously ill have to get the 1776 pistons and cylinders, and possibly get larger injectors or bump up the pressure.
I know i need to stick to a stock cam-- can this be done with a 1776? what modifications, if any, have to be made to the other engine components?
valves and heads: I have a pair of (hopefully) undamaged but used FI cylinder heads. Aside from the cleaning and any machine work they would need, should i have anything else done to them? what size valves should I ask for? I want to make sure that i have the proper valving for FI and mileage but i dont know if its compatible with a larger displacement-- if its not i'll just go stock.
pushrods-- would it be worth going to the chomoly or whatever ones that you set the valve gap to "0"?
lifters: what do you suggest for long life and reliability?
clutch and flywheel are new, obviously ill have to add a new front main seal.
is it worth making my valve covers vented and all that?
im 50 50 on whether im going to add an external oil filter. I change my oil so often I don't think I need it, but I wanted experts opinions on the matter.
are there any things you guys can think of that I'm missing here? I want this engine done right, so im having the machine work outsourced to a reputable shop, but I'll be doing the actual build myself. This is my first time doing a complete 100% home build, so I wanted to know what special tools I might need that I dont already have, as well as what greases, lubricants, etc. I have feeler gauges, digital calipers ( a good brand) and i'll probably pick up a micrometer.
finally-- for anyone who's done a rebuild like this before-- what parts can I re-use safely with a 1776 (if they need a resurfacing or whatever thats fine) and what things should I absolutely buy new?
thanks all. its been a real kick in the ass today since im going home to SLO tomorrow and thought I'd have the car done. one step forward, 5 steps back. |
I tried calling you, so I would be perceived not in the wrong manner. I might be blunt, but I want to see back on the road A.S.A.P.. Plus, this is going to be long, and take time.
| JSMskater wrote: | [...]
ALL of this however, maybe be moot depending of what you all make of these results:
Compression test results (psi):
dry
1--115, 125
2-- 120, 125
3-- 115, 110
4-- 140, 135
Wet (with oil primed into the cylinders)
1-- 145, 145
2-- 155, 150
3- 130, 130
4-- 150, 150
[...] |
First, let us prove that you need a rebuild. First, compression needs/can go low as 80p.s.i., with variations of no more than 15p.s.i.. You have as little as 110, and according to Georg:
| Tram wrote: | | JSMskater wrote: | | Tram wrote: | Joe, one thing you haven't mentioned is the throttle switch. What's it test out like?
It seems to me that Russ Wolfe had a car with a similar lack of power issue quite some time ago that wound up being the throttle switch, if I'm at all recalling correctly.
Those plugs really don't look bad. Did you do the compression test with the engine warmed up to operating temperature, all plugs out, and throttle blocked wide open? |
unfortunately no, the compression test was done cold, but with all the plugs out and the entire upper intake removed (runners and throttle body).
I'll test my TVS right now and see how it checks out, though I'm almost positive it's ok. I guess it's hard for me to overstate how badly it was running despite the good compression and seemingly close fuel mixture, which is why im going WTF? i mean the idle was even, but sounded off. the acceleration was slow and you heard spitting/raspberry noises. and above all, it just REFUSES to get up past 65. |
If you do the comp test later the official way, I think you'll find it's not as bad as you imagine. The thing to be most concerned with is huge variations from one cylinder to the next. I think if the rings were really as horrible as the test indicated, you'd have high oil consumption, blue smoke on startup and deceleration, and evidence of oil fouling on the plugs.
And, you are ASSUMING your TPS is good. It may be! But remember the first rule of successful troubleshooting: NO ASSUMPTIONS. You're checking data. Period.  |
Thus, you have life out of the core of the engine. Look at the wet readings: you did not have much of a jump. Your rings are only fubur if you have blue smoke. In short, the core is good, so why go to more time and money, when all is good?
So, you have a cracked head. BIG DEAL! Grab the used head, and slap it on. Russ has build engines from what he has swept off the floor, and lasted 25,000 miles, I.I.R.C.. They may need valve work, but they will do until the summer. If you are real concerned, bolt up the replacement, and do a leak down test. Once you get that done, then you can install it, and get all the parts on.
In the summer, build the 1776 if you have to. I would Ray the F.I. before you build it, because you may gain enough performance to suit you. Remember what I said about mine getting more and more performance? You be surprised what you can get out of them, even with so so parts.
Next, I replaced my push rod tubes and seals, and did not need a rebuild. Thanks to you, she has been doing fine. I think you are trying to find an excuse for an engine you do not need. For years folks were just happy with 63 horsepower. Some where, they decided they needed more, even though they had plenty to pass folks on the interstate, and come of the line enough to put you fully into the seat.
Knowing you are a night person, stay up, maybe some coffee to stay alert, and get it done. You have at least 12 hours, and you can get a lot done in that time. I have pulled all nighters for architecture, and I am a morning person. I have gone for about 10 hours strait, then a few hours of sleep, and got back to work. I am trying to push you! You need no stinking rebuild! Got kicked, get up!
Oh, and if you still do not have heads, you can check the ones I have. I have not pulled them, so I am not sure. I was needing the fan puller, for some reason. 
I will give advice later...
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Tram
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Posts: 10163
Location: Getting Stimulated... WooHoo!
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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I have positively zippo experience on a 1776. My advice would be to go with Type 4 or 914 injectors, though, if you go that route. If it were me, I'd stay stock. You can ask Anniehum how much zip a balanced stock 1600 can produce... in a split Bus. I built her that one with Russ Wolfe heads. Incidentally, at 1200 miles, his rebuilt heads needed far less valve adjustment than factory rebuilds would require. I had to open up the #3 exhaust just a hair, as it had tightened up to about .004 from .006". That was it.
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Adriel Rowley
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Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 2638
Location: El Cajon, California
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: | | I have positively zippo experience on a 1776. My advice would be to go with Type 4 or 914 injectors, though, if you go that route. If it were me, I'd stay stock. You can ask Anniehum how much zip a balanced stock 1600 can produce... in a split Bus. I built her that one with Russ Wolfe heads. Incidentally, at 1200 miles, his rebuilt heads needed far less valve adjustment than factory rebuilds would require. I had to open up the #3 exhaust just a hair, as it had tightened up to about .004 from .006". That was it. |
I managed to call him, and he is taking the Ghia to S.L.O.. He has the engine ready to split. I tried to convince him that he was going to have to do some adjusting, but he said one just needs to bump the pressure. Plus, he said he has all the parts, so no turning back.
Georg, I think you are right about performance. My Squareback is not fully in tune (really close), and it is a blast! 63 horsepower, right? 35 pounds per a horsepower, which is really good. A 1776 is going to give about 28, so not much of a bump. I would think you would be able to get a lot of it from a well tuned and costume adjusted F.I., like Ray was saying. Plus, with the latter, one would gain gasoline mileage, which you will not with a 1776.
Also, I am glad you mentioned the heads. I regret not putting that on my list, but I will see. I am also surprised how in spec, they were. I bet they will last longer, due to quality, and running cooler. Even the engine, which is heavily affected by the head temperatures.
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 3983
Location: Rancho Penasquitos/ San Diego CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| architect_7 wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | I have positively zippo experience on a 1776. My advice would be to go with Type 4 or 914 injectors, though, if you go that route. If it were me, I'd stay stock. You can ask Anniehum how much zip a balanced stock 1600 can produce... in a split Bus. I built her that one with Russ Wolfe heads. Incidentally, at 1200 miles, his rebuilt heads needed far less valve adjustment than factory rebuilds would require. I had to open up the #3 exhaust just a hair, as it had tightened up to about .004 from .006". That was it. |
I managed to call him, and he is taking the Ghia to S.L.O.. He has the engine ready to split. I tried to convince him that he was going to have to do some adjusting, but he said one just needs to bump the pressure. Plus, he said he has all the parts, so no turning back.
Georg, I think you are right about performance. My Squareback is not fully in tune (really close), and it is a blast! 63 horsepower, right? 35 pounds per a horsepower, which is really good. A 1776 is going to give about 28, so not much of a bump. I would think you would be able to get a lot of it from a well tuned and costume adjusted F.I., like Ray was saying. Plus, with the latter, one would gain gasoline mileage, which you will not with a 1776.
Also, I am glad you mentioned the heads. I regret not putting that on my list, but I will see. I am also surprised how in spec, they were. I bet they will last longer, due to quality, and running cooler. Even the engine, which is heavily affected by the head temperatures. |
for the "life of the core" of the engine- lets be realistic. This is the SECOND pair of heads I've now had crack on me on this engine, this is the FOURTH time I've torn it down, and quite frankly I'm sick and tired of not knowing what the hell is going on in the short block. The engine may not NEED a rebuild right this second, but why fuck around with it? I have precious little spare time, I have no shop of my own, and so am restricted to borrowing my parents driveway space, and after looking at the pistons and cylinders tonight, they are definitely on the way out. the rings were shot, two of them had cracks and one came apart in peices when i went to remove it from the piston. If you recall, I had to replace the clutch, flywheel, and front seal last year in my school parking lot. not an experience i want to repeat. this mindset that you and frankly a lot of VW owners have about just fixing this one thing or that one thing-- I just dont get it. I've tried that, and it nickle and dimes you to DEATH and eats time like you wouldn't believe. you end up spending the SAME or MORE amount of money over a longer period than just biting the bullet and then enjoying. I bought a new longblock for my bug... which then went into the ghia... and 4 years later and after being daily driven first by me and then by my dad-- its NEVER needed ANYTHING. all it's ever needed were oil changes and valve adjustments. thats. it. reliable. thats what i want.
I'm rebuilding it for PEACE OF MIND. I'm fucking tired of having to do these half assed seat of my pants repairs because it'll get me another 4 months or service before something else breaks. this is no way to operate a "daily driver". sure, I could slap on the spare head I have and be on my way, and who know, it might even make it another 5 years. But there's a lot of IFS there and I don't deal with ifs. I deal with an engine that CAN and WILL run like a swiss effing watch by the time im done with it. I'm sorry adriel, but i just don't buy into the whole fix whatevers broken and leave the rest alone, especially after this point the only thing LEFT to replace is the short block.
no. I have the engine out NOW. I had it halfway torn down already when i discovered the cracked head, the only thing i had left to do was split the case. What's another 3 hours of work and then start with a fresh, solid base i KNOW was built right? i don't need an excuse for a new engine-- I have one. I'm going to build a quality engine and it will last a long, long time without any bullshit guess work about how it was broken in by the PO, what idiot mods they did (and i found a FAIR few during the teardown) etc.
but I digress. again, I've never had anything against my stocker engine. ever. I don't suffer under the delusion that bumping up to 1776 is going to make all that much of a difference with "zip". It's not a race car. However there is something to be said about longevity- I spend a good amount of my time fighting the steep grades between SLO and LA, and I plan on driving up to Canada in June. Not only that, but I spend a good amount of time cruising on the freeway, and a 1776 will keep the revs down at speed and probably CONSERVE more fuel and stay cooler than the stocker- without running a freeway flyer tranny. This is all about longevity here-- not power. I don't think I'd have to mess with the MAP or anything FI related with the exception of bumping the pressure and/or larger injectors. D-jet was used successfully on 1.7 L 411 engines and so I know it works. there isn't any adjusting being done here. the 90.5mm pistons and cylinders require machining of the case-- big deal. they're not so huge that they begin to take away from the integrity of the case, and that P/C combo has the same cylinder wall thickness as stockers, so no problems there (unlike slip ins).
I think a 1776 is going to be ideal for what I want to do with it-- lots of freeway cruising, a lot of grades, and for maintaining a long lasting, cool running engine. the mileage isn't going to suffer-- it'll take less to get it up to speed and less to keep it there-- think about it: its the same mentality as Russ's trick of bumping the fuel pressure to 32/34. Sure if you floor the thing all the time and treat it like a racecar its going to guzzle gas, but the 1600 will do that.
anyway rant over.
Russ: you have a PM.
to the general audience:
I'll know tomorrow about the condition of the Cam and lifters,
however I know virtually nothing about the crankshaft and the rods and all the other internal bits. New? Re-use? any ideas?
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71 Squareback- Fuel Injected!
70 Ghia- cool cruiser
74 Bay - three bench seats!
TOOB Member #3
There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it over.
| Jake Raby wrote: | | I didn't mention it because someone would say it doesn't matter. Every fucking thing matters. |
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onerase
Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2008
Posts: 258
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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I agree^ Just rebuild. Ive been kinda waiting to see what your cars problem was. Mines got some similar symptoms. In reading your threads its clear that yeah, the only thing left to replace is the short block. In my book you've been more than diligent in tracking things down and if nothing else youll gain that last bit of experience.
Sorry to hear it wasnt something simpler. Good luck with the 1776, IMO a modest and reasonable upgrade.
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: | | Lets take this private, and out of the forum. |
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Russ Wolfe
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Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 19743
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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I would say your crank is probably OK. You may need to get the small end on the rods rebushed. About $10 a rod around here.
I did not get your PM.
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 3983
Location: Rancho Penasquitos/ San Diego CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: | I would say your crank is probably OK. You may need to get the small end on the rods rebushed. About $10 a rod around here.
I did not get your PM. |
thanks Russ-- I just sent the PM like 2 seconds ago so it should be there now. also, you can disregard some of the questions i asked since you just answered them here for me
NOW you have a PM
_________________
71 Squareback- Fuel Injected!
70 Ghia- cool cruiser
74 Bay - three bench seats!
TOOB Member #3
There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it over.
| Jake Raby wrote: | | I didn't mention it because someone would say it doesn't matter. Every fucking thing matters. |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 3983
Location: Rancho Penasquitos/ San Diego CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| onerase wrote: | I agree^ Just rebuild. Ive been kinda waiting to see what your cars problem was. Mines got some similar symptoms. In reading your threads its clear that yeah, the only thing left to replace is the short block. In my book you've been more than diligent in tracking things down and if nothing else youll gain that last bit of experience.
Sorry to hear it wasnt something simpler. Good luck with the 1776, IMO a modest and reasonable upgrade. |
I mean if I had another car to use as a daily between repairs, why not? If I had a proper garage and driveway at my own place with ALL of my tools and everything, why not? but I dont have any of those things. I live in on campus apartments, my tools are often split between my apartment, my car, and my parents house, and I can't leave things unfinished over night, or even for a few minutes while I run up and grab something from my apartment! its stupid. I just want a reliable engine like the one that has served me dilligently and without any bullshit in my bug and then in my ghia. T3-s aren't unreliable, and neither is FI-- but cobbling together an engine with half new and half old parts is a recipe for disaster-- and I'd rather just start from ZERO miles and go from there.
_________________
71 Squareback- Fuel Injected!
70 Ghia- cool cruiser
74 Bay - three bench seats!
TOOB Member #3
There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it over.
| Jake Raby wrote: | | I didn't mention it because someone would say it doesn't matter. Every fucking thing matters. |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 2638
Location: El Cajon, California
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: | | architect_7 wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | I have positively zippo experience on a 1776. My advice would be to go with Type 4 or 914 injectors, though, if you go that route. If it were me, I'd stay stock. You can ask Anniehum how much zip a balanced stock 1600 can produce... in a split Bus. I built her that one with Russ Wolfe heads. Incidentally, at 1200 miles, his rebuilt heads needed far less valve adjustment than factory rebuilds would require. I had to open up the #3 exhaust just a hair, as it had tightened up to about .004 from .006". That was it. |
I managed to call him, and he is taking the Ghia to S.L.O.. He has the engine ready to split. I tried to convince him that he was going to have to do some adjusting, but he said one just needs to bump the pressure. Plus, he said he has all the parts, so no turning back.
Georg, I think you are right about performance. My Squareback is not fully in tune (really close), and it is a blast! 63 horsepower, right? 35 pounds per a horsepower, which is really good. A 1776 is going to give about 28, so not much of a bump. I would think you would be able to get a lot of it from a well tuned and costume adjusted F.I., like Ray was saying. Plus, with the latter, one would gain gasoline mileage, which you will not with a 1776.
Also, I am glad you mentioned the heads. I regret not putting that on my list, but I will see. I am also surprised how in spec, they were. I bet they will last longer, due to quality, and running cooler. Even the engine, which is heavily affected by the head temperatures. |
for the "life of the core" of the engine- lets be realistic. This is the SECOND pair of heads I've now had crack on me on this engine, this is the FOURTH time I've torn it down, and quite frankly I'm sick and tired of not knowing what the hell is going on in the short block. The engine may not NEED a rebuild right this second, but why fuck around with it? I have precious little spare time, I have no shop of my own, and so am restricted to borrowing my parents driveway space, and after looking at the pistons and cylinders tonight, they are definitely on the way out. the rings were shot, two of them had cracks and one came apart in peices when i went to remove it from the piston. If you recall, I had to replace the clutch, flywheel, and front seal last year in my school parking lot. not an experience i want to repeat. this mindset that you and frankly a lot of VW owners have about just fixing this one thing or that one thing-- I just dont get it. I've tried that, and it nickle and dimes you to DEATH and eats time like you wouldn't believe. you end up spending the SAME or MORE amount of money over a longer period than just biting the bullet and then enjoying. I bought a new longblock for my bug... which then went into the ghia... and 4 years later and after being daily driven first by me and then by my dad-- its NEVER needed ANYTHING. all it's ever needed were oil changes and valve adjustments. thats. it. reliable. thats what i want.
I'm rebuilding it for PEACE OF MIND. I'm fucking tired of having to do these half assed seat of my pants repairs because it'll get me another 4 months or service before something else breaks. this is no way to operate a "daily driver". sure, I could slap on the spare head I have and be on my way, and who know, it might even make it another 5 years. But there's a lot of IFS there and I don't deal with ifs. I deal with an engine that CAN and WILL run like a swiss effing watch by the time im done with it. I'm sorry adriel, but i just don't buy into the whole fix whatevers broken and leave the rest alone, especially after this point the only thing LEFT to replace is the short block.
no. I have the engine out NOW. I had it halfway torn down already when i discovered the cracked head, the only thing i had left to do was split the case. What's another 3 hours of work and then start with a fresh, solid base i KNOW was built right? i don't need an excuse for a new engine-- I have one. I'm going to build a quality engine and it will last a long, long time without any bullshit guess work about how it was broken in by the PO, what idiot mods they did (and i found a FAIR few during the teardown) etc.
but I digress. again, I've never had anything against my stocker engine. ever. I don't suffer under the delusion that bumping up to 1776 is going to make all that much of a difference with "zip". It's not a race car. However there is something to be said about longevity- I spend a good amount of my time fighting the steep grades between SLO and LA, and I plan on driving up to Canada in June. Not only that, but I spend a good amount of time cruising on the freeway, and a 1776 will keep the revs down at speed and probably CONSERVE more fuel and stay cooler than the stocker- without running a freeway flyer tranny. This is all about longevity here-- not power. I don't think I'd have to mess with the MAP or anything FI related with the exception of bumping the pressure and/or larger injectors. D-jet was used successfully on 1.7 L 411 engines and so I know it works. there isn't any adjusting being done here. the 90.5mm pistons and cylinders require machining of the case-- big deal. they're not so huge that they begin to take away from the integrity of the case, and that P/C combo has the same cylinder wall thickness as stockers, so no problems there (unlike slip ins).
I think a 1776 is going to be ideal for what I want to do with it-- lots of freeway cruising, a lot of grades, and for maintaining a long lasting, cool running engine. the mileage isn't going to suffer-- it'll take less to get it up to speed and less to keep it there-- think about it: its the same mentality as Russ's trick of bumping the fuel pressure to 32/34. Sure if you floor the thing all the time and treat it like a racecar its going to guzzle gas, but the 1600 will do that.
anyway rant over.
Russ: you have a PM.
to the general audience:
I'll know tomorrow about the condition of the Cam and lifters,
however I know virtually nothing about the crankshaft and the rods and all the other internal bits. New? Re-use? any ideas? |
I am glad you posted what we discussed. Things are not going well, huh? Hope things are better in the morning.
Which reminds me, do you know someone with a welder I could borrow? Otherwise, I will just use Rustoleum and duct tape. Tired of seeing the rust getting worse and worse, and not able to do anything. Then, I thought of duct tape. Good backing for the bondo, versus fiber mat.
I am of the school if it is not broken, do not fix it. In your case, you did not know it was broken until you took it apart, which is rare. It should have shown up in the wet compression.
I was using YOUR advice, and trying to make things easier for YOU. You could have nursed the engine up and back, but now you have peace of mind that you did it, and you know what was done.
I have nursed things out of necessity, and learned that most things you cannot get away with, if they are not done properly. I can run ball joints without most of the rubber, because I know how to keep it clean.
You do not realize how lucky you are to have a driveway, even a parking spot. You need not worry about you legs run over, a tool causing a car to have a wreck, etcetera. Look at the blessings, and thank God. I thank Him that at least I have transportation.
If you want a good break in, use low/no detergent oil, such a Valvoline Racing 1, which lets the rings seat/cut. You could improve this with the special honing Mr. Adney was mentioning, and I have forgotten. 
Why be sorry towards me? I am enough of a man to take about anything, except someone hurting my Sister, of course. Sock it, brother! I learned the hard way not to fix things that are not broken. Your engine turns out to be broken: how would I know? YOU are the one providing information.
Three hours, huh? How much time have you spent here, or doing other research? Plus, are you considering the time you will need to tune it? You are right, as usual.  Break-in does determine the rest of the life of the engine, as witnessed by the Ghia engine.
The 1600 was built to CRUISE at 84, and is capable of more. I made the point not just for you, but the community. Knowing you, you would not leap into something for a small reason, such as performance.
Ah, you are going for the more performance, better millage thought. Darn, to many people say otherwise. Knowing you, you probably want to give it some, and go 65 to 70 M.P.H.. I like going 55 to 60 M.P.H., even when people think I should be going faster. It is a MAXIMUM speed, not a minimum. We will see who is right! 
The purpose of bumping the fuel pressure is not to provide more performance range. It is so when you are on the freeway, you can maintain speed with less throttle.
| JSMskater wrote: | | onerase wrote: | I agree^ Just rebuild. Ive been kinda waiting to see what your cars problem was. Mines got some similar symptoms. In reading your threads its clear that yeah, the only thing left to replace is the short block. In my book you've been more than diligent in tracking things down and if nothing else youll gain that last bit of experience.
Sorry to hear it wasnt something simpler. Good luck with the 1776, IMO a modest and reasonable upgrade. |
I mean if I had another car to use as a daily between repairs, why not? If I had a proper garage and driveway at my own place with ALL of my tools and everything, why not? but I dont have any of those things. I live in on campus apartments, my tools are often split between my apartment, my car, and my parents house, and I can't leave things unfinished over night, or even for a few minutes while I run up and grab something from my apartment! its stupid. I just want a reliable engine like the one that has served me dilligently and without any bullshit in my bug and then in my ghia. T3-s aren't unreliable, and neither is FI-- but cobbling together an engine with half new and half old parts is a recipe for disaster-- and I'd rather just start from ZERO miles and go from there. |
Well, I guess your advice about replacing the heads was a farce. Now we know.
You do have a point about reliability. Luck you have another auto to get you up there. Soon, I will not have that option.
Also, I understand now that field repairs are not possible. Too bad you have such dishonest people. Stupid '65 Immigration Act!
_________________
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
Last edited by Adriel Rowley on Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 3983
Location: Rancho Penasquitos/ San Diego CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| architect_7 wrote: | | JSMskater wrote: | | onerase wrote: | I agree^ Just rebuild. Ive been kinda waiting to see what your cars problem was. Mines got some similar symptoms. In reading your threads its clear that yeah, the only thing left to replace is the short block. In my book you've been more than diligent in tracking things down and if nothing else youll gain that last bit of experience.
Sorry to hear it wasnt something simpler. Good luck with the 1776, IMO a modest and reasonable upgrade. |
I mean if I had another car to use as a daily between repairs, why not? If I had a proper garage and driveway at my own place with ALL of my tools and everything, why not? but I dont have any of those things. I live in on campus apartments, my tools are often split between my apartment, my car, and my parents house, and I can't leave things unfinished over night, or even for a few minutes while I run up and grab something from my apartment! its stupid. I just want a reliable engine like the one that has served me dilligently and without any bullshit in my bug and then in my ghia. T3-s aren't unreliable, and neither is FI-- but cobbling together an engine with half new and half old parts is a recipe for disaster-- and I'd rather just start from ZERO miles and go from there. |
Well, I guess your advice about replacing the heads was a farce. Now we know.
You do have a point about reliability. Luck you have another auto to get you up there. Soon, I will not have that option.
Also, I understand now that field repairs are not possible. Too bad you have such dishonest people. Stupid '64 Immigration Act! |
huh? on the first
I'm very lucky I have the ghia- or else I'd be taking the train 
and I'm not worried about people stealing stuff.. what are they going to take? some parts for a car that practically nobody knows anything about my tools? probably not, they're pretty cheapo stuff. I'm more worried about getting a ticket or some such other beauracratic nonesense.
btw-- its all a moot point now anyway-- I found a stock 1600 rebuild kit on CIP1 for a price that's so good I'm just gonna get the stocker kit and save the money so I can buy a shiny new Rancho Transaxle that doesn't pop out of reverse. go celebrate, im staying stock.
_________________
71 Squareback- Fuel Injected!
70 Ghia- cool cruiser
74 Bay - three bench seats!
TOOB Member #3
There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it over.
| Jake Raby wrote: | | I didn't mention it because someone would say it doesn't matter. Every fucking thing matters. |
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