No spark at plugs- but good current at top of distributor

[erikgundy98]

I went on a 45 minute drive- only to get towed home.

Last week I rebuilt my distributor and finally got things all tuned up nicely today prior to . Went out on a drive today, and when I tried starting it up to come home- it would not start.

I smelled gas and things on the carb side look good.

So I waited- but when it wouldnt start, I checked and had no spark. Ok, I checked and there was a regularly strong 11.98V to the coil. The wire from the coil to the distributor- 11.98V and I checked that the distributor is turning when the ignition is turned- but when I tested to see if there was a spark- nothing.

The 009 distributor with electronic ignition, cap and rotor, is new. The spark plug wires are new. Both replaced while doing the carb. Could my electronic ignition have gone bad? After 1 test run? What would make the electronic ignition go out? I think I might have timed the bus 5 BTDC not 5 ATDC - could this have done it?

1971 Bus
34 Pict 3 carb
009 Dizzy
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'71 Westy
'74 Standard Beetle
'69 Vespa (fits inside bus)

[SGKent]

pull the wire from the center of the distributor and see if it sparks when it is held close to the shroud and the engine is cranked. Use a dry rag to hold the wire and keep your paws away from the brass at the end lest you get zapped. If there is no spark then remove the green wire going to the distributor from the coil and use a jumper to momentarily jump that coil spade lug to ground while watching for a spark again. If you get a spark each time you touch and lift the jumper then yes, your electronic ignition has gone bad.
_________________
Steve aka Merlin the Wrench

formerly Steve's Racing and Engine Blueprinting. Wrenching since 1967.

bdamico on GF wrote

[erikgundy98]

Could this have happened because of my timing being off?
_________________
'71 Westy
'74 Standard Beetle
'69 Vespa (fits inside bus)

[SGKent]

[erikgundy98]

It died a few times when I would come to a stop at a stoplight- but it would start right back up. Then drove just fine for 30 miles on the freeway until I got back into another small town- when it died at another light- but again started right up.

I can't imagine the electronic ignition crapping out this early- but if I did something to create it's death- I don't want to do it again. Any ideas?

Should I pull the electronic ignition- put in points- and see if that is the problem?
_________________
'71 Westy
'74 Standard Beetle
'69 Vespa (fits inside bus)

[TristanM]

Just curious, what type of electronic ignition were you using? I made the mistake of purchasing a Hot-Spark electronic ignition a few years back and it did exactly what you are describing. Try the points and see what happens.
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Don't Believe The Hype.

[ccpalmer]

[SGKent]

[Wildthings]

Since it sounds like you just installed a new electronic ignition, you should consider it to be the number one suspect. Do the test that SGKent mention of removing the wire from the center of the cap and holding it to ground. Be very carefull, it is very likely you will get zapped if you hold onto the wire. I like to stick a philips screwdriver in the end of the wire and hold the screwdriver close to ground verses holding on to the wire. The plastic handle of the screwdrive should give you good protection.

If you do have spark at the end of the wire suspect a bad cap or rotor.

With an 009 distributor you can not set your timing at the book spec, or even set it at idle unless you know how much advance your particular distributor has. You must set the timing at full mechanical advance, 28-32^ BTDC @ ~3500+ rpm.

[erikgundy98]

OK, I tested for spark- none.

I tested the positive side of the coil. 11.74 Volts when ignition is turned to the 'on' position.

Still, no spark when I tried the test you suggested.

I replaced the coil. Still no spark. So I thought- my new spark plugs might be bad- so I tested their resistance- and they each seemed fine. (coil wire- 1200, all others 7-800

What do you think? What reading should I get coming out the middle of the coil (to the distributor)? I guess I am assuming that the coil is doing its job since it is new- and it appears that wasn't the problem.

Cant seem to find the necessary settings anywhere. I read this post http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=vw%...2K8eNFhk9w
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'71 Westy
'74 Standard Beetle
'69 Vespa (fits inside bus)

[SGKent]

look - the battery provides power to the coil thru the ignition switch. You know that is good.

The distributor points or electronic ignition module provides the ground that energizes the primary side of the coil. When the points open or the module turns off the current the coil magnetic field collapses and puts its energy into the secondary coil winding. That winding then sends the electricity out the top where it travels thru the big coil wire into the cap and rotor.

If that big wire doesn't have a spark nothing else will so stop thinking plugs etc.

You can simulate what the points or module do by removing the points / module wire from the coil and by hooking up a jumper to that spade lug on the coil. With the key on and the big wire near ground - use that screwdriver trick Wildthing suggested, just touch the jumper to ground and for a split second. Every time you do the coil should give a big spark. Let us know what happens.
_________________
Steve aka Merlin the Wrench

formerly Steve's Racing and Engine Blueprinting. Wrenching since 1967.

bdamico on GF wrote

[erikgundy98]

So I jump the positive side of the coil to the negative side, with the electronic ignition NOT connected to the coil at this time, but with the ignition turned "on", and holding the coil wire on a grounded part of the engine and see if it sparks, right?

I have not done this, as I want to make sure this is correct.

This would tell me if there is ample power into and out of the coil right?
_________________
'71 Westy
'74 Standard Beetle
'69 Vespa (fits inside bus)

[Tom Powell]

[Tom Powell]

Should we tell him to put his elbow against the frame and hold the end of the coil wire in his hand?

tp

[erikgundy98]

This is why I did not do anything yet!

I was sure I was reading the prior post incorrectly

Thanks for the humor- I felt like a heal not knowing what to do
_________________
'71 Westy
'74 Standard Beetle
'69 Vespa (fits inside bus)

[SGKent]

1) leave the positive wire on the coil. Just leave it alone.

2) Remove the wire going to the distributor. It used to be green if you had points. I have no idea what color it is now.

3) Take a 1 or 2 foot piece of wire, like speaker wire, and wrap it around the spade lug you just took the wire off in step 2. Turn the key on. Every time you touch the jumper to the body of the car and lift it the coil should spark.
_________________
Steve aka Merlin the Wrench

formerly Steve's Racing and Engine Blueprinting. Wrenching since 1967.

bdamico on GF wrote

[Tom Powell]

[Tom Powell]

Here is a schematic for a points and condenser ignition.



When you follow SGKent's instructions and touch the jumper to ground momentarily, you are the points.

You can do a search on TheSamba and find excellent explanations of the distributor cam opening the points and letting them close and the field in the coil building and collapsing and producing the spark at the plugs.

Electronic ignition components replace the points and condenser and there is a bit less maintenance. But, they may last decades, or fail abruptly. And, they are sensitive to abuse by leaving the key on when the engine is not running.

When you have solved this problem be sure to read the Lucas theory of electricity.
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?24170...-Joe-Lucas

Aloha
tp

[SGKent]

[erikgundy98]

Thanks for the image.

I have a spark when I quickly connect the jumper from the spade positive side of the coil to the engine. Thanks for the advice on that. I have spark there.

I dont have spark when I hold the coil wire near to the fan housing (when the ignition is on, and the key it turned by my wife.

I have new wires and a new coil on. New distributor. New rotor and cap. New electronic ignition. What the heck!
_________________
'71 Westy
'74 Standard Beetle
'69 Vespa (fits inside bus)