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69 Horn issue
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Marleybus
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: 69 Horn issue Reply with quote

I have read over most all horn posts. I have a simple question for my 1969 Convertible.
What touches the isolated brass bearing that is connected to the horn when I assemble the steering wheel?
I can get the horn to sound by touching the wire down the steering column to the brass race but am bewildered as to how this might work when assembled. The horn ring will ground to the steering wheel. How does the steering wheel mesh with the brass race to complete the circuit?
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1972 VW Westy (Hit by dumptruck)
1963 VW Beetle (RIP)
1974 VW Beetle (RIP)
1981 Vanagon Westfalia (Sold)
1969 VW Beetle Convertible (Wifes)
1977 VW Westy 2.0L FI Chrome Yellow
1978 VW Westy 2.0L FI (Under Restoration)
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Check out my thread!!http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=556709
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sb001
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: 69 Horn issue Reply with quote

These images from a recent similar thread may help explain it.

This photo shows the metal inner "ring" inside the steering column with the horn ground wire coming through it:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That ground wire comes through and attaches to the outer horn ring shown here:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then the horn ring attaches to that inner metal ring with those 3 screws, BUT those springs around the screws keep the horn ring separated from the inner metal ring, so the ground circuit stays broken until you push the horn ring (or horn button) inward. When you push the horn ring inward, it touches against the inner metal ring and completes the ground circuit firing the horn.

This is also why if you overtorque those horn ring screws down, the horn will constantly sound because the horn ring will constantly be touching the inner metal ring. You just want to tighten them down enough to where the horn ring is secure but still separated from the inner metal ring via those springs.
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1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
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Last edited by sb001 on Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Marleybus
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: 69 Horn issue Reply with quote

That I understand. The issue is what contacts the steering wheel to the brass race behind it? I Understand the horn ring makes the momentary contact connection.
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1972 VW Westy (Hit by dumptruck)
1963 VW Beetle (RIP)
1974 VW Beetle (RIP)
1981 Vanagon Westfalia (Sold)
1969 VW Beetle Convertible (Wifes)
1977 VW Westy 2.0L FI Chrome Yellow
1978 VW Westy 2.0L FI (Under Restoration)
1973 VW Westy 1.7L Tourist Delivery Orange
Check out my thread!!http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=556709
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 Horn issue Reply with quote

Marleybus wrote:
That I understand. The issue is what contacts the steering wheel to the brass race behind it? I Understand the horn ring makes the momentary contact connection.


Horn ring is attached to the brass contact ring just in front of it by a screw that also holds the end of the ground brown wire that goes thru the steering shaft.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The brass ring on the front of the horn ring is what contacts the brass ring cast into the steering wheel.
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 Horn issue Reply with quote

By "isolated brass bearing" I believe the OP means the upper steering shaft bearing below the steering wheel (pictured below).

This is an image of the '68-'70 upper steering column bearing for the Beetle & Ghia.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Notice that the OD has a plastic cover to prevent the bearing from contacting the outer housing where it rests. As you suggested, it is isolated. Note that the ID of the bearing has metal conductors. This allows the bearing to make electrical contact with the steering shaft passing thru it.

    With the ignition ON the horn has constant 12v+ coming from the fuse box to the horn (+).
    The brown wire from the horn (-) connects to the upper steering bearing.
    The ID of the bearing contacts the steering shaft.
    The steering shaft has the steering wheel mounted to it.
    The steering wheel is one side of the horn switch.
    The horn ring is the other side of the switch.
    The horn ring is connected to the wire that runs down the inside of the shaft and grounds to the bolt for the steering box.


Simply put, the upper steering shaft bearing + the steering shaft + the steering wheel + the horn ring are ALL part of the ground path for the horn.

The bottom end of the steering shaft is mounted to the rubber isolation ring so the shaft is NOT grounded. If at any time the steering wheel or the steering shaft were to become grounded... the horn would sound.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
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Marleybus
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 Horn issue Reply with quote

I may have found the problem. The horn ring I replaced the plastic piece inside of the brass bearing. This piece isolated the bearing from the shaft and was solid plastic, it looks like the bearing should have continuity with the shaft in the picture above of the bearing assembly.
_________________
1972 VW Westy (Hit by dumptruck)
1963 VW Beetle (RIP)
1974 VW Beetle (RIP)
1981 Vanagon Westfalia (Sold)
1969 VW Beetle Convertible (Wifes)
1977 VW Westy 2.0L FI Chrome Yellow
1978 VW Westy 2.0L FI (Under Restoration)
1973 VW Westy 1.7L Tourist Delivery Orange
Check out my thread!!http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=556709
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 Horn issue Reply with quote

Marleybus wrote:
I may have found the problem. The horn ring I replaced the plastic piece inside of the brass bearing. This piece isolated the bearing from the shaft and was solid plastic, it looks like the bearing should have continuity with the shaft in the picture above of the bearing assembly.

Sounds like you used the plastic bushing to fill the gap between the steering shaft and the ID of the bearing. Probably because the bearing inner plastic sleeve with conductive strips has worn out in your bearing.
For the '68-'70 model years you need a conductive bushing replacement... like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C24-171-419-341

... or you need to replace the upper bearing with a new one with the proper conductive inner sleeve.
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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