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Did a 1965 bug come with seat belts installed?
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:05 pm    Post subject: Did a 1965 bug come with seat belts installed? Reply with quote

I live in California and I've been reading CVC 27315 about seat belt laws:
(f) Every owner of a motor vehicle, including every owner or
operator of a taxicab, as defined in Section 27908, or a limousine
for hire, operated on a highway shall maintain safety belts in good
working order for the use of occupants of the vehicle.

but then it goes on to say:
This subdivision
does not, however, require installation or maintenance of safety
belts where not required by the laws of the United States applicable
to the vehicle at the time of its initial sale.

I just bought a '65 bug from a private party and it does not have belts installed. I know I could install them and many of you would insist that I do but I'm asking you if I legally need to. TIA
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gt1953
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for your safety I would have them.
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gt1953 wrote:
for your safety I would have them.


Thanks but that doesn't answer my question.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These pages from the '65 owner's manual indicates that belts were not standard equipment because they were "available from any VW workshop". However, by this time, the mounts were already being put in by the factory. In your pictures they don't seem visible unless they are hidden under the headliner. Also keep in mind that at that time they were still putting in mounts for a shoulder belt only (look in the manual at the description of where they go in the car).

So unless the laws of the state in which the car was initially sold required them, the car would not have been sold by the dealer with seat belts unless the customer asked for them. Now you have to find out if that state required them when the car was sold.

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MAYHEM
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine had the tunnel mounts but thats it. No seat belts.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to find out for your state, but I thought this was interesting to add, from http://www.preventioninstitute.org/traffic_seatbelt.html

"In 1966, the Highway Safety Act and the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act were passed, still the most substantial legislation to date regarding automotive industry standards. The legislation authorized the federal government to set and regulate motor vehicle and highway standards, and also created the National Highway Safety Bureau, which later became the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). The resulting improvements in auto design were significant and included head rests, energy absorbing steering wheels, shatter-resistant windshields, and mandated installation of seatbelts."

It doesn't say when the changes were required for manufacturing nor any mention of state-specific laws.
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ronbdavis
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw, if you do decide to add seat belts, this may be of some help
http://www.theclassicbeetle.com/2007/11/12/seatbelts-vwbeetle-installation/
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rm56
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:48 pm    Post subject: belts Reply with quote

A 1965 VW did not come with seatbelts. My 64 Bug did not have them but the mount points where put in under the seats so they could be added. The first American factory installed seat belts were in the 1950 Nash Statesman. If your 65 does not have any belts your looking at about $120.00 and a few minutes to install them. Here in Taxifornia where I'm from belts are now mandatory by law. Ever hear the "Click it or Ticket" safety campaign? So your Car did not come with them but the man says you have to have them. Frankly I always wear mine, always.
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's also this: http://www.julianos.com/how2_vw3point.html

Instructions for installation and where to buy the kit.
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: belts Reply with quote

rm56 wrote:
A 1965 VW did not come with seatbelts. My 64 Bug did not have them but the mount points where put in under the seats so they could be added. The first American factory installed seat belts were in the 1950 Nash Statesman. If your 65 does not have any belts your looking at about $120.00 and a few minutes to install them. Here in Taxifornia where I'm from belts are now mandatory by law. Ever hear the "Click it or Ticket" safety campaign? So your Car did not come with them but the man says you have to have them. Frankly I always wear mine, always.


Apparently you didn't read the first post where I quoted the CVC which states that if the car originally didn't come with belts then they are not required. I'm from California too and the reason for this thread is because I have heard of "click it or Ticket". I just want to do the research on the subject in case I ever have to convince "The Man" of the correct interpretation of the law.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the above. The mounts for the bolts are there, even mounts in the pillar between the door and rear side window, for shoulder strap attachments. When I bought my bug, it had lap belts. I converted to 3-point belts in front (nonretractable). I drive my car almost daily and, considering the relative lack of other safety features present on today's cars, I felt the belts (and my rosary beads) were the most important safety changes I could make.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd try to find out about antique vehicle requirements in CA, and if you operate one, what is needed to be legal on the road. Like, does CA make you put seat belts in a 1933 Deusenberg? Those cars didn't have them as far as I know. Pull up your carpet and look to see if you've got the holes in the floor pans close to where it meets the heater channel right behind the seat. Can't recall about the '65's, '66's had standard seat belts out of the factory. If standard equipment for the '65's excluded seat belts, you don't need them, unless CA says all vehicles regardless of year manufacture says you do. I may be totally wrong on all this, but it seems to make sense. CA laws may not. I seem to remember our family's new bought from the dealer '65 did have seat belts. It was a red Beetle with the white interior panels, had white seats, red carpet, and the black seat belts with the Wolfsburg crest on the buckles, making me think they were dealer installled.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my dad bought a 65 beetle in August of 65 from Atlas VW in San Francisco and it came with seatbelts and he did not order them. The only option he got was the radio. His car came with whitewalls... but he told them he was not going to pay for something he did not order...so they removed the tires and replaced them with blackwalls.... they gave away nothing for free.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 65 bought new in San Diego CA came with lap/sholder cobo belts at no additional cost. (non retracting)
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bill may
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1967 was 1st year seat belts (lap type in usa) were standard. if you have them installed on older car you have to use them. yes i live in california. prior to 1967 model year if they are there then they were dealership or previous owner installed. don't guess learn the facts.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

69judson wrote:
My 65 bought new in San Diego CA came with lap/sholder cobo belts at no additional cost. (non retracting)


does it show this on the window sticker? or birth certificate?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cutter57 wrote:
I agree with the above. The mounts for the bolts are there, even mounts in the pillar between the door and rear side window, for shoulder strap attachments. When I bought my bug, it had lap belts. I converted to 3-point belts in front (nonretractable). I drive my car almost daily and, considering the relative lack of other safety features present on today's cars, I felt the belts (and my rosary beads) were the most important safety changes I could make.


Ok guys, I need to point out again that this thread is intended to discuss the legality of whether or not seat belts are "required" in my 1965 bug. I'm not debating the importance of using them for safety sake. That's pretty much a no brainer. I do however believe that riding a motorcycle without a helmet or driving a car without using a seat belt should be up to the operator, not the state. Florida had a helmet law and then rescinded the law if you could show you had adequate medical insurance.
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AJ.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was told a story by the PO of my car that in 66 the seatbelt law went into effect, my car being one of the first here apparently, got GM seatbelts as the VW ones werent at the dealer when it was originally bought.
truth or not, good story or not, i thought id share what i was told. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In short you're fine not having or keeping safety belts in your 65.

Mandatory Seat Belt Law for California http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27315.htm
"This subdivision, however, does not require installation or maintenance of safety belts if not required by the laws of the United States applicable to the vehicle at the time of its initial sale."

Federal Standards http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/fmvss/index.html
"Standard No. 209 - Seat Belt Assemblies - Passenger Cars, Multipurpose Passenger Vehicles, Trucks, and Buses (Effective 3-1-67) This standard specifies requirements for seat belt assemblies."

The federal standard is a standard given to the manufacturers not enforced by police, but the california includes a caveat to the date given by the federal standard.

Click or ticket is an awareness/enforcement program funded by NHTSA
http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.ce4a601cdfe97fc239d17110cba046a0/
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the best authority on this would be to speak to your local transport people responsible for regulating and licensing your roads.

If you can get something in writing, or a copy of the relevant legislation, by law that covers this.


Or perhaps the police can help you or direct you to who best to speak with?


I know my 1965 Beetle has never had seat belts mounted in the back, it's August 1964 built.
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