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78 Superbeetle sputters and stalls - very loud fuel pump...
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BlackScorpion
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject: 78 Superbeetle sputters and stalls - very loud fuel pump... Reply with quote

Hi there,
I'm new here and just bought my first superbeetle. It's a 78.
It hadn't been run in a couple of years, but the motor was apparently replaced before it was parked - with an original stock FI 1.6. Looks new.

Before starting it, I did the usual oil change and drained the gas tank of any old fuel. Holy stink.

Anyways, I noticed that under the fuel tank, there were two fuel filters - first, one clear plastic paper element type (looks like a carb filter) and then the box-shaped fuel filter, and then the fuel pump. Pretty sure that extra clear plastic one is unnecessary, but I left everything the way it was.

[Edit] The above was a terrible description of what I saw.

When I started it, it ran pretty good - and drove fine for about 10 minutes.

Then the fuel pump suddenly got very noisy - sounded like a heater fan kicking in on full speed. The car then lost power and ran very sputtery. Was fine at lower RPMs and idle, but when trying to accelerate it would sputter or just stall out completely.

I was able to drive it like that for another hour LOL...just to make it home. Kept losing more power and stalling more often.

I'm thinking I need a new fuel pump - it looks like the original on the car. Or could it be anything else?

Anyways, I'm wondering if there's a generic type of electric fuel pump I can get?

The local parts stores here want $300-$500 for the Bosch or equivalent type pump.

But Ebay has what looks like the same size/shape aftermarket one for $60. Fits all sorts of superbeetles, vanagons and Jaguars?

So I'm wondering if there's some magic part number that I can order at my local store to get something similar instead of going through Ebay.

Anyone have Lpm or Psi specs for the original unit?

Thanks for all your help! Very Happy


Last edited by BlackScorpion on Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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ach60 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would consider replacing fuel filter with the correct one & new fuel lines.
Than I would see about the pump, yes the pump is putting out low pressure,
but is it because a $10 filter has clogged, or a $160 pump has failed?
Bus Depot is a good source for VW FI parts.
http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=133133511
http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=GFP301.
Also once you get the pump installed, check the wiring with a VOM to insure the pump is getting at least 12V.
On mine I had a voltage loss though the wire harness so my pump was only getting 8V.
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn , that guy can type fast! Shocked

The results of dead gas.

Sooner or later you are going to be removing the fuel tank (not a big deal) and cleaning it all out. Might as well do it now. You german tank is better than a new crappy one with thinner metal. Save it.

http://www.glenn-ring.com/tech/gas_tank_resto.htm

Lose the carb filter. NFG.

Buy a few of the square plastic filters...one for now and several to have around. Fuel flowing thought the pump is what keeps the fuel pump cool.

http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=133133511

I buy the Bosch pumps myself because I don't want to have to buy another.

http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=GFP301
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BlackScorpion
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies folks! Ok, so I was under the car again yesterday. This time I had sobered up from being in a small garage with the old gas fumes.

Things looked different now. See pic below.

I didn't realize how complicated it would be to get gasoline from the tank to the engine?

Seems like there's more than one hose and more than one path. I was wrong about the cheap plastic filter being inline with the pump, seems like it's connected through a T-connector to a what looks like a smaller pump?

Can anyone help me identify the components and the flow of gas in this photo I took. Yes, I know, she's a little rusty. Smile

When I drained the tank, I just disconnected the bottom hose from the bottom of the cheap plastic filter (#4) and 5 gallons flowed out very easily.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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bruce jones
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In your photo, fuel pump [1] draws fuel from the tank through filter [3] and delivers to the fuel rail at the engine. Excess fuel is returned from the fuel rail to the tank via the upper fuel line.

Connected to the upper (return) fuel via t-fitting are filter [4] and the second fuel pump [2], which were probably for a gas heater.
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So do you have a gas heater?
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zoti
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be more concerned about the condition of the frame head than the sputtering problem.
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Endicott jb
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothin a little bondo won't fix. Wink
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zoti
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like what's holding the front of the car together IS the fuel pump and filter.
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BlackScorpion
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Bruce and Randy - thanks for the info! Yes it does have a gas heater, although it's disconnected. Good to know about that second little fuel pump.

As for the bottom of the frame head, yes, it's a little rusty. Cough. But that's really the worst of it. Seems to be really concentrated on that panel. I'll get a replacement from California Imports and weld it in...but that will be another forum topic. Smile

Ok, so I've sourced known good used fuel pump locally - I know, I know, I should just get a new one, but it's cheap and I want to see if that's the problem. I will also change the square fuel filter and surrounding lines

Thanks for the advice, and I'll let y'all know if that was the culprit.
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billyfeet
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your pump is making noise because the rust from your fel tank is clogging the square filter. You need to change the filter, and when you remove the old filter, turn it inlet end down over qa bucket and marvel at the rust chunks you will see! A new tank or a cleaned and sealed job on yours is the way to go. Also all fuel lines should be replaced. The fuel pressure is pretty strong in a FI bug, and those fuel lines will be misting your engine with gasoline.
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discochris
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And be careful with the fuel pump bracket and hangers. 31 year old rubber parts have a tendency to crack and break. Don't ask me why I know this, or why I'm going to be spending the evening under my car with some conduit hanger from the hardware store...
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BlackScorpion
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

discochris wrote:
And be careful with the fuel pump bracket and hangers. 31 year old rubber parts have a tendency to crack and break. Don't ask me why I know this, or why I'm going to be spending the evening under my car with some conduit hanger from the hardware store...


Haha - yah, with my rusty ride, I'd be worried about the fuel pump taking half the frame head with it.

Anyways, I have a ....resolution! It was just the fuel filter. BillyFeet wins the prize. Thanks for playing.

Here's the prize, a photo of the mess that was clogging up my filter.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My fuel pump is nice and quiet again...just a gentle whirring, and she runs a lot smoother and hasn't stalled yet.

Thanks everybody!
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have never sinned or ever had an impure thought, changing the fuel filter may solve the problem. Make sure you have a few on hand.

The rest of us have to clean out the rust in the fuel tank.
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billyfeet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am happy to be the prize winner! My "prize" was the chance to put on ALL new correct fuel injection fuel hoses, and a new fuel tank in my 79 vert! I could have treated and sealed the old tank, but my time is worth more than the price of a tank and I could drive to JBugs and pick it up. You WILL reclog your filter quickly, and that is no fun. The tank removal is an easy job, it isn't going to fix it's self. The fuel hoses are a time consuming job, but a burned car is not fun! Good luck!
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy,

Hang on to that good german tank because when you see how thin the repops are, you will be putting it back in.
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discochris
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be finding out in the next day or so if I'll be getting a new, used, or repairing my fuel tank as well, if that should end up being the problem.

I didn't have crap like that coming out of my fuel filter though - that's nasty.
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zoti
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I got my car it was sitting for 12 years. The gas tank was in such a bad condition that I just got a new one. I gave the old tank to someone else. I figured I will never restore it. It looked like an ice cave inside it with things hanging from the top of the tank like in the picture below.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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