Replacing oil cooler seals

[Wildthings]

Find some wavy washers at a local auto parts or hardware, they are pretty thin compared to what you have now.

[airschooled]

[raygreenwood]

This is a looooong time argument. It comes and goes here and on the STF.....for ages.

People with good experience that KNOW for a fact that the rather precise double stamped....washers.... (yes they are double stamped with no crowned side....so they are spacers...not washers) that are sometimes seen on the outside of the cooler with a wavy washer on top and the nut on top of that......also sometimes are put in BY THE FACTORY.....AS SPACERS BETWEEN COOLER AND CASE.

I have had, driven and disassembled and rebuilt...known undisturbed factory engines that use these washers as spacers between case and cooler.

The difference is in the make/manufacturing detail of the coolers. There are some manufacturing differences in how the outer plating of the coolers are wrapped and lapped before welding and some slight differences in the height of the bosses on the seal side of the coolers.

Its not a part number or year difference. Its a manufacturing tolerance difference. These ard welded or braised parts. There ard always slight,differences in production lots....just like radiators.
I cant believe there is nothing in any of the parts books. All of the ones I have found that I know for a fact came from the factory with spacers between cooler and case....were 411s or 412s. Also....not every undisturbed factory 411 or 412 I have worked on....had these washers as spacers. Some had them on the outside.

I do know...from hideous experience....that if you change the configuration from how the cooler originally came ...whether the washers were inside or out....it generally leaks from the seals.

These seals gendrally,require about,25-30% crush...maximum. You can,dry fit the cooler...measure the gap with clay with the washer inside or out and get an idea of what your cooler will require.

But...do not blindly state...across the board that the double stamped medium sized washer (about 13mm).....definitively goes on one side of the cooler or the other...because you dont know that definitively. Ray

[wbnguyen]

Awesome! thanks for the info guys!!!

[Amskeptic]

[Wildthings]

[Tcash]

[Tcash]

http://www.oldvolkshome.com/oilcool.htm
http://classicvw.org/gallery2/d/13174-7/oil+cooler+seals.jpg
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/oil_cooler_seals/2b.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/1-032.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/1-033.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/LateBaywindow/008-00-1-022.jpg

Please note: If your oil cooler has little or no Raised boss, use the spacer washers between the oil cooler and the adapter/case.

[airschooled]

Tcash, it might be worth editing that Bookwus pic to include some text showing that the controversial copper washers were, well, incorrect in that case. That picture might get posted/referenced elsewhere, and it would be handy to include that caption.

I assembled my engine according to his picture, since I couldn't find any info in Wilson or Bentley, and it blew two cooler seals all at once out on the highway. The two remaining seals were cracking and ballooning out, but hadn't cracked yet. I was steadfast in my cleaning, torquing, and assembling, but they still blew out because of the extra seal space. Of course, this is on a T1 engine, but the same physics apply: an under-crushed seal will not last.

Robbie

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[Brian]

Huh, a washer is supposed to go down there? well shit
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[Wildthings]

[Amskeptic]

[wbnguyen]

Hey guys! sorry for the late response, been tackling a dead fuel pump issue. So in response to the oil seal ID, here is a photo as I already had thrown the old ones out so i couldn't measure. The Empi does have a larger ID. It did fit in well and ill try to get some pictures but forgot while engine was out. Looks like it fit just fine.

I used the smaller washer between block and cooler and larger between cooler and nut.

I'll let you know how it works out. so far no leaks but I've only warmed up the bus @ idle, so far so good.

[airschooled]

I hope everything works out. If it blows, it won't at idle, but at a 4,000 RPM hill climb when the oil hasn't fully warmed up.

I was rereading Bentley about this yesterday, and they mention checking your oil relief and control pistons if you have consistent leaks at pressurized fittings or parts.
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[Tcash]

[raygreenwood]

I always hate getting in a head knock with Colin. Tons of experience there. But....I have a ton of miles an experience with type 4's myself. I dont put forth information I dont know to be true. Is it correct?....hard to say with the years and variations. Far too many details on how these engines were built...assembly line technique etc....is not in the books.

I think what is going on here is that far too many people are assuming that :
A. The oil coolers are all the EXACT same dimensions
B. That the cases are all machined to the EXACT same dimensions.
C. That (as people are mentioning) that the correct oil cooler seals are even the EXACT same dimension from make to make

I took some pictures for your perusal. I had to dig for a while to get both of these sets of parts up on the bench.
These are two engine cases from my collection of five on hand. Both of them are from type 4 cars.

The one dated 4-72 is from a 1972 411 (my very first car).

The second one dated 11-72 is from a 1973 412....my current two door that is about to get rebuilt.

Both of these cars I bought as the second owner...and i personally KNEW the first owner and have complete service history on both cars and engines. The 412's history is so complete that I have every scrap of paper ever generated on it back to the assembly line printout. It was picked up as a tourist car in Germany, driven in France and Norway and shipped back here by the Airforce.

The 411 was acquired at 55k miles running and driving.....and the 412 at about 75k miles not running. The engine had never been out of either according to the original owners and the paperwork.

ONE engine (the 412 case)......had the thick washers between the oil cooler and the case....from the factory. Neither had leaky oil coolers....the 412 had a leaking oil pressure switch and a leaking fan seal....all original.

However.....because of the differences in the coolers...coupled with the differences in the cases.... the cooler from the 11-1972 VW 412 ...will seal on the later 412 case using the washers. Without them the seals look like pancakes.
The 4-72 cooler from the 411 WILL SEAL on the earlier 411 case it came from....with no washers between cooler and case.

But...if you put the 411 cooler on the 412 case....it squishes the seals. If you put the 412 cooler on the 411 case the seals are too loose.
this can be judged easily by whether the seals can be rotated with any amount of pressure by using a pick when the cooler is installed using the washer between case and cooler.

Both cases are EA series.

The gasket set I pulled the seals from is a 10 year old Victor Reinz set

Seals

The cases I am looking at. Both EA series.

The FACTORY washers. If anyone thinks these are ordinary stamped washers....think again. These are double "blanked" or double stamped. Perfectly flat on both sides. No crowning whatsoever, and zinc plated. They are also about .070" thick ( I forgot to measure I will post actual thickness later). They are built like spacers

the 411 oil cooler 4-72 date stamp

the 412 oil cooler 11-72 date stamp

The early case with the washers and seals on it even though it came without them...just so you can see the spacer dimension difference next to the seal.

So....the amount of crush that will be applied to the seal...with these spacers installed....will largely be about the height of the bosses on the cooler itself...AND....THE HEIGHT OF THE THIRD BOSS ON THE CASE....WHICH MANY TIMES GIVES A SLIGHT AMOUNT OF TILT TO THE COOLER...AND GREATLY INCREASES/DECREASES CRUSH

Make note...this is the 4-72 oil cooler from the 411. The bosses are thicker and the lip created by the lapped and welded cover plate are also slightly thicker as compared to the 4-12 cooler below.

Make note: the boss areas where the 5mm rods are threaded in are all machined in one pass. I dont know if the seal recesses are bored before or after this pass....but this is most probably where differences in seal fit come from. Those differences in seal fit along with oil cooler differences an make the difference in the need for a "spacer" or not.

This is the late case that came with washers as spacers between cooler and case. Note the height of the machine work bosses arrowed.

This is the early case without spacers between cooler and case.....but they were present on the outside under the wavy washer.

This is the early case. with no washers and the oil cooler that came with and the higher bosses. This cooler seal crushes enough that you cannot spin it without ripping it with a pick. Plenty of seal.

This is the late case with late cooler and spacers between the cooler and case...again...the seal cannot be spun and has plenty of crush for sealing.

Definitive...uh...no.
Just goes to show that there are differences. I have chalked this one up long ago to one of the same problems I see on assembly lines of many types that I visit all the time.

A minor variation gets seen during the assembly process that come and goes. It may be a variation caused by component differences (like oil cooler variation or seal variation)...or one caused by an upstream machine process.

Either way its quick enough to fix and something that needs to be found on each engine by test fit during assembly (just like differences in piston pin fit wherein the employee keeps a range of pins in groups close by to work with the occasional tight or loose fitting pin that may be .0001" to ,0002" different... instead of calling quality control and making an engineering change.

I am...speculating...that enough come and go differences happened with oil cooler and seal fit....that they swapped in spacers instead of regular flat washers in the "kit" for this stage assembly. Depending on seal fit...they either go on the inside as spacers if needed or the outside as simple washers if not. No need to go calling anyone or digging around for a different cooler.

The fact that they are NOT using a NORMAL flat washer by any means....leads into this. I mean...come on...do you really think that a 6mm stud with 5-8 ft lbs on it requires a .080" thick washer?

In both cases in my collection...I would say neither fit with or without spacer is perfect....one could be slightly more crush and one could be slightly less. Both are perfectly functional. Ray

[Tcash]

Work in Progress


#1 red seal and #2 black seal come up with the same part #111198151, 1946-69, Oil Cooler Seal, Single Port, 8mm X 8mm.

The Black seal is for the oil cooler with the stepped boss at the 6mm mounting studs.
Would I be correct in saying that the #1 seal is for the oil cooler with the flat mounting surface?

Does anyone have the engine number when this change occurred?

Thank you
Tcash

[Tcash]

To link to this thread copy and paste

[Tcash]

Amskeptic what are your thoughts about these two seals having the same part number?

[Tcash]