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bsrad Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012 Posts: 254 Location: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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Ok. Little back story. Last weekend we made a long drive with the high beams on and I brushed my hand across the fuse box cover and noticed it was warm. I popped the cover off and the two high beam fuses were extremely hot. The plastic part of the fuses were partly melted. The rest of the trip I didn’t use them.
So this weekend I did a little investigating and this is what I found. Plug B on the back of the panel certainly showed evidence of heat at one of the big no.22 connector. Also there is a wire that comes off the back of that plug that goes up to another connector that the wire insulation was melted. Any guesses of what this little connector is for? The melted wire/insulation appears like it could be old as the wire looks a little corroded too.
Questions... is this a common vanagon issue? Could I just clean up the one connector on plug B, add a little dielectric grease and plug back in? Any guidance of what that little connector is?
_________________ Bill
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1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40 |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9776 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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Are you running higher power (watts) headlights than original/stock?
Have you added relays to the headlight circuits? |
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bsrad Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012 Posts: 254 Location: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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Ahwahnee wrote: |
Are you running higher power (watts) headlights than original/stock?
Have you added relays to the headlight circuits? |
Yes running higher watts with relays. _________________ Bill
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1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40 |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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Pin B22 is after the added relays so it carries full high beam amps and the relays don't help with that weakness.
Run reasonable wattage bulbs or risk burning out wiring etc. I have seen that pin damaged before as well as other parts of the wiring path leading to the high beams.
Mark |
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bsrad Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012 Posts: 254 Location: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Pin B22 is after the added relays so it carries full high beam amps and the relays don't help with that weakness.
Run reasonable wattage bulbs or risk burning out wiring etc. I have seen that pin damaged before as well as other parts of the wiring path leading to the high beams.
Mark |
Thanks Mark. The PO installed the relays and they are installed a little different then the ones I’ve installed in my 68 and FJ40. I don’t understand what’s the point of the relay if it still goes through the fuse panel anyway. Here’s how it’s wired:
87 on relay goes back to B22 pin
85 is to ground
30 power
86 to headlights
_________________ Bill
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1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40 |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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The relays can be helpful in all vans, reducing the load on some switches that commonly burn out even with stock bulbs.
There is a better way to do this for high wattage bulbs but not with an existing kit. I wish Jay would make one.
Here is a photo from the gallery of another melted B22.
Mark |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15130 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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one thing often overlooked that creates heat in the wiring circuit is the grounds.
a poor connection or unclean ground will create resistance. and that creates heat..
clean and provide a new/fresh/clean ground to metal behind the headlights/grill.
water in a turn signal housing will melt a fuse into the block.. but won't blow it..
wet faults are often a source of house fires too.. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22573 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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That entire connector needs to be removed and replaced in kind or clipped and tAgged with documentation so that you/next owner can troubleshoot the next failure. _________________ .ssS! |
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bsrad Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012 Posts: 254 Location: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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danfromsyr wrote: |
one thing often overlooked that creates heat in the wiring circuit is the grounds.
a poor connection or unclean ground will create resistance. and that creates heat..
clean and provide a new/fresh/clean ground to metal behind the headlights/grill.
water in a turn signal housing will melt a fuse into the block.. but won't blow it..
wet faults are often a source of house fires too.. |
Great point. _________________ Bill
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1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40 |
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bsrad Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012 Posts: 254 Location: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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Abscate wrote: |
That entire connector needs to be removed and replaced in kind or clipped and tAgged with documentation so that you/next owner can troubleshoot the next failure. |
It’s been added to my winter list. Thanks _________________ Bill
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1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40 |
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bsrad Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012 Posts: 254 Location: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
The relays can be helpful in all vans, reducing the load on some switches that commonly burn out even with stock bulbs.
There is a better way to do this for high wattage bulbs but not with an existing kit. I wish Jay would make one.
Here is a photo from the gallery of another melted B22.
Mark |
Please bear with me. I’ve searched and searched, and read and read and I still don’t understand why one would put a headlight relay kit in and still run it through the fuse panel. Isn’t a relay kit supposed to take out the components that can’t handle the higher watts/amps, say like my fuse panel?
When I installed them in my 68 baywindow and FJ40 the voltage coming out of fuse panel was used for the switch power on the relay. Wouldn’t have doing it this way in my vanagon eliminates the possibility of melting the connector on the back of the panel? _________________ Bill
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1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40 |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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Far more vans get damage to the parts the relay kit DOES bypass and that is why we have the relay kits. It doesn't bypass everything and some vans still get damage.
Mark |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:06 am Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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Pull your #30 12v power for the headlamp relays outside the fusebox.
Taking 12v for the headlamp relays from inside the fusebox will fry the wires.
If you have a later model Vanagon with A/C..a handy spot to grab your #30 12v is the 50 amp radiator fan blade fuse above the fusebox.
Wire in the #30 12v on the downside/fused end of the fuse so if there is a fault the 50 amp fuse will blow.
Downside is if the 50 amp fuse blows..no radiator fan.
The odds of the very high speed fan coming on with maximum draw, at night with the headlamps on is very low.
Or..you can use the 12v at that 50 amp blade fuse and then install an inline fuse for the headlamps #30 power wire too..if you are running high wattage bulbs..use a 40 amp inline fuse.
Or..run a wire from the battery, fused, to the #30 headlamp relays. |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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The suggestion to power the relays from another source has merit but in this case it wouldn't have helped since his melted pin B22 is AFTER the added relays. Powering the relay from another source wouldn't change this.
If someone wants to get power from the 50 amp fused side of the high speed fan relay I would say to move only the high beams to this source. That way if the fuse were to blow there would still be low beams available. It is the 4 bulb high watt high beam circuit that really has the issues and exceeds double or triple the amps of the low beam circuit.
My approach on my own vans has been to remove the headlight bulb power from the stock fuse/relay panel entirely, with relays and a small fuse panel mounted elsewhere. This has to be done safely and with some thought for long term reliability. A real kit for this would be nice and the same kit could work on both early and late vans.
Mark
AtlasShrugged wrote: |
Pull your #30 12v power for the headlamp relays outside the fusebox.
Taking 12v for the headlamp relays from inside the fusebox will fry the wires.
If you have a later model Vanagon with A/C..a handy spot to grab your #30 12v is the 50 amp radiator fan blade fuse above the fusebox.
Wire in the #30 12v on the downside/fused end of the fuse so if there is a fault the 50 amp fuse will blow.
Downside is if the 50 amp fuse blows..no radiator fan.
The odds of the very high speed fan coming on with maximum draw, at night with the headlamps on is very low.
Or..you can use the 12v at that 50 amp blade fuse and then install an inline fuse for the headlamps #30 power wire too..if you are running high wattage bulbs..use a 40 amp inline fuse.
Or..run a wire from the battery, fused, to the #30 headlamp relays. |
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bsrad Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012 Posts: 254 Location: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
My approach on my own vans has been to remove the headlight bulb power from the stock fuse/relay panel entirely, with relays and a small fuse panel mounted elsewhere. This has to be done safely and with some thought for long term reliability. A real kit for this would be nice and the same kit could work on both early and late vans.
Mark |
Mark this is the answer I was loooking for.
Do you know what wire number in the B plug is power out to the lights? B9? Seems like you could tie B22 to this wire with an in-line fuse and totally eliminate the panel.
Thanks again.. _________________ Bill
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1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40 |
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Butcher Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015 Posts: 1285 Location: Right Here
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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Some of this is difficult for me to understand but what I see is a relay that is not installed properly. Like someone pointed out, the relay is suppose to take the load out of the fuse box and therefore prevent issues like this. It appears the way you have it routed makes no sense. A quick Google search may make it easier to understand what you did wrong.
As for bad grounds and heat, bad connections on a high current circuit will cause heat at the connection, not the entire circuit. So if you had a bad connection at the ground terminal, it could melt the insulation at that terminal. It certainly would slow down the electrons and the consumers on that circuit would operate slower/dimmer.
Typically a bad ground connection would not cause a fuse box connector to burn. |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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Your underlying assumption is mistaken. The relay kits weren't designed to take the load out of the fuse box. The kits were designed to remove the main load from the much more failure prone ignition switch and headlight switches. The relay kits do this very effectively. Even vans with stock bulbs suffer from these switch failures but upgraded vans more so.
You can die from a head wound while wearing a bullet proof vest but that doesn't make bullet proof vests useless at all.
Mark
Butcher wrote: |
Some of this is difficult for me to understand but what I see is a relay that is not installed properly. Like someone pointed out, the relay is suppose to take the load out of the fuse box and therefore prevent issues like this..... |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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There are 4 headlight fuses in the panel, 2 for high left and right and 2 for low beams left and right.
Lets talk about just the highs since that is the problem area.
High beam power comes into the panel on B22, splits into 2 paths and each path get a fuse. Then each fused path has a wire out, a left side high beam wire and a right side high beam wire.
Fuse #9 = right side highs out on fuse panel pin C16 and wire is white with black stripe (also out pin A28 wire for dash high beam indicator)
Fuse #10 = left side highs out on fuse panel pin C17 and wire is white
So of course you can bypass the stock fuse panel completely but you need to split the relay output wire that used to feed B22 into 2 paths left/right and add fuses. Then also connect one of them to the wire for the dash led for high beam indicator.
(for vans that don't yet have serious damage to the stock fuse panel there are better ways than above)
Mark
bsrad wrote: |
Mark this is the answer I was loooking for.
Do you know what wire number in the B plug is power out to the lights? B9? Seems like you could tie B22 to this wire with an in-line fuse and totally eliminate the panel.
Thanks again..
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
My approach on my own vans has been to remove the headlight bulb power from the stock fuse/relay panel entirely, with relays and a small fuse panel mounted elsewhere. This has to be done safely and with some thought for long term reliability. A real kit for this would be nice and the same kit could work on both early and late vans.
Mark |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50265
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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For pre '86 Vanagons, buy fuses that have brass contacts verses zinc ones and you will have less corrosion and thus a better contact between the fuses and the contacts on the fuse box. Also use dielectric grease on the ends of the fuses. For the high speed fan circuit using a modern spade style fuse in an line fuse holder is a good idea, but be sure your crimps are A-1. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Fuse box worries. Things melting |
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Never was a fan of the sandwich style fuse boxes. I was surprised to learn that the headlight relay kits only took the load off of the head light switch. I would have thought the kits would have included moving the load lead to a better suited location too. _________________ ☮️ |
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