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runslikeapenguin Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2005 Posts: 4674 Location: Federal way WA
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: Flipped upside down transmission |
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ive been looking at some Formula Vee cars and i realized that they all have the transmissions mounted upside down. i figure this is so they can run them in the mid engine setup and not have to flip the ring and pinion. besides mounting the transmission and the other obvious things like the clutch and shifter are there any other issues with doing this? anything that you need to do to prep the transmission for this? and are there any negative effects on the transmission? _________________ never forget 1-31-07 |
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towd Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2458
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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I was around Fv cars in the early years when it was still a working mans sport ,, and still to this day have never seen one with a trans flipped
there would be Zero reason to do this ,, in fact doing it would raise the center of gravity and defeat any other gain..
The only case I could see where anyone would flip the trans would be using a 02 or 091 midship.
anyway,, to use any vw trans upside down ,, inside the trans case has to have oil passages drilled,, allowing the oil to flow from the trans to the diff |
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runslikeapenguin Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2005 Posts: 4674 Location: Federal way WA
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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towd wrote: |
I was around Fv cars in the early years when it was still a working mans sport ,, and still to this day have never seen one with a trans flipped
there would be Zero reason to do this ,, in fact doing it would raise the center of gravity and defeat any other gain..
The only case I could see where anyone would flip the trans would be using a 02 or 091 midship.
anyway,, to use any vw trans upside down ,, inside the trans case has to have oil passages drilled,, allowing the oil to flow from the trans to the diff |
thats weird because i just looked through like 5 pages of pictures of vintage and modern racers and almost every last one had the transmission mounted upside down.
but the oil passages you say? drilled and modded how? _________________ never forget 1-31-07 |
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towd Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2458
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: |
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LOl,, when I read your post I went WTF and did a google seacrh very car I saw had a swing axle and it was in a normal midship mounting .
upside down would put the starter on the bottom and the hump of the bell housing ,, There would be no way to get the cars as low to the ground as they are and still keep the center of gravity down..
mounting the trans this way would rise it's center line a good 6"
Chit I'll go look again ... things change,, it's been at least 30 yrs since I had any hands on with these ... |
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towd Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2458
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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nope just reread all the rules,, it wouldn't be legal to run one upside down |
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Stuggi Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2007 Posts: 1208 Location: Jakobstad, Finland
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Stuggi Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2007 Posts: 1208 Location: Jakobstad, Finland
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Stuggi Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2007 Posts: 1208 Location: Jakobstad, Finland
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Eaallred Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003 Posts: 5756 Location: West Valley City, Utah
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Stuggi wrote: |
My money is on that something inside the trans is flippable to make it go backwards... |
Ring gear is easy to flop over to the other side. That's what split window buses were with thier reduction boxes. _________________ Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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dirtkeeper Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008 Posts: 3200 Location: Left of everywhere
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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runslikeapenguin wrote: |
towd wrote: |
I was around Fv cars in the early years when it was still a working mans sport ,, and still to this day have never seen one with a trans flipped
there would be Zero reason to do this ,, in fact doing it would raise the center of gravity and defeat any other gain..
The only case I could see where anyone would flip the trans would be using a 02 or 091 midship.
anyway,, to use any vw trans upside down ,, inside the trans case has to have oil passages drilled,, allowing the oil to flow from the trans to the diff |
thats weird because i just looked through like 5 pages of pictures of vintage and modern racers and almost every last one had the transmission mounted upside down.
but the oil passages you say? drilled and modded how? |
Any pictures to share with us? |
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melville Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2006 Posts: 1242 Location: Just Outside the Redwood Curtain
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: |
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dirtkeeper wrote: |
runslikeapenguin wrote: |
towd wrote: |
I was around Fv cars in the early years when it was still a working mans sport ,, and still to this day have never seen one with a trans flipped
there would be Zero reason to do this ,, in fact doing it would raise the center of gravity and defeat any other gain..
The only case I could see where anyone would flip the trans would be using a 02 or 091 midship.
anyway,, to use any vw trans upside down ,, inside the trans case has to have oil passages drilled,, allowing the oil to flow from the trans to the diff |
thats weird because i just looked through like 5 pages of pictures of vintage and modern racers and almost every last one had the transmission mounted upside down.
but the oil passages you say? drilled and modded how? |
Any pictures to share with us? |
Yeah, any pix?
Note that the input shaft is the higher one in a VW trans. Flipping the trans over will lower the motor several inches relative to the output flanges. Lower CG=good thing in a roadracer, and I believe Hewland VW based transaxles are available set up that way for use in FF and small sports racers. That said, our motors have a lot of stuff going on below the crank (like the valvetrain) that the inliners don't have, leading to a potential ground clearance problem. On a swingaxle car like a FV, the relative raised position of the trans output would wreak havoc with the camber. I'm not sure you could lower it down to a drivable/raceable camber without putting the sump below ground level. _________________ 2000 M Roadster
79 R100RS
78 R100/7
75 R75/6
65 Standard Micro
57 Sedan |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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In the world of Road racing everything is different than the guys realize that go straight... Things like 3.5" clutches, lightened cranks and etc are not typically done in most VW Motorsports.
The Hweland transaxle is based from a TI, these are used in lots of SCCA cars like the Formula Ford and many other open wheel spec racers and even in production cars.
In most situations the Hewland modified TI tranny is installed upside down compared to how it would run in a TI.
Road Racing is a seriously taxing sport for the driver and car... Here is our beast.
_________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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DSF Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2004 Posts: 605
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: |
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THAT is a bad ass 914, Jake...
*edited 'cause I can't speel ass.
Last edited by DSF on Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Thanks.. We got close to our division championship this year, we missed one critical race and that cost it for us.. _________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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towd Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2458
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if your confusing F V with F ford or even F 4 cars...
The Vee cars are still left fairly stock..like on the trans,,, as per the rules.. you can do a 180 rotate,, flip the ring gears and use any gearing as long as the gears are stock ( OEM ) but that it
They guy wanting to see pictures,, I guess it of the hole drilled in a 02 / 091 bus trans.....
There no secert to this,, just put the bell housing.. on the bottom of the case you will see stock cast holes. Between the gear housing and the diff housing .. now look at the top.. there isn't any holes..
when you flip the trans the top is now the bottom ... all you do is drill hole between the two housing,, allowing the gear oil to move between those areas..
I can't see them using one of these,, because of the weight factor..
we do this when using a Bus trans in a midship sand rail...as you can not flip the ring gear .
Was surprised to see the engine size was limited to 1200 cc |
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runslikeapenguin Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2005 Posts: 4674 Location: Federal way WA
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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theres more but i dont feel like going back through the whole list _________________ never forget 1-31-07 |
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towd Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2458
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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ok solved ,, those are not F Vee cars ... |
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runslikeapenguin Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2005 Posts: 4674 Location: Federal way WA
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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towd wrote: |
ok solved ,, those are not F Vee cars ... |
they are Super Formula Vee cars. not the swing cars. _________________ never forget 1-31-07 |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
they are Super Formula Vee cars. not the swing cars. |
And Type 4 powered with Solex 40 P 11 Carbs
170 HP 30+ years ago from 1700ccs _________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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towd Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2458
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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maybe jake will look back in here ,, I'm sure he knows what class those are ..
The two super vee cars loo a s the trans is upright and not turned over.... all the upright water cooled motors are upside down...
my guess is there keeping the rotating weight in line and above the crank.....
What site are you getting these off ?? I'd like to look also .. I have always loved these cars,, just could never afford to get into this level of racing ...
There's nothing like the sound of a 4 cyl inline motor turning 12,000 rpm ... LOL
thanks for bring up this topic ,,, now I'm ready to take all my old junk VW parts and build some Vee cars to run on the old logging roads around this area,, LOL
can ya see it now " hillBilly racing" at it's best .. |
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