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'50 running gear value / 383 dist. wire or spring clips?
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mr. warehouse
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:53 am    Post subject: '50 running gear value / 383 dist. wire or spring clips? Reply with quote

I have my hands on a 25hp engine out of a '50.

As far as I know it's "correct" but maybe the experts in here can tell me more.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I also have the trans, beam, and complete brake set ups from the same 1950 car.

The engine / trans were rebuilt 100 miles (10 years) ago when the car was restored. It's pretty much sat since then.

Any input would be great.


Last edited by mr. warehouse on Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ARB
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 50 parts you have are worthless...matter a fact you should ship them to me and I will just throw them away....and by throw them away I mean keep them forever Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there was a free nonshock tower beam and split beetle trans on the samba for free a month ago,the ad was up for awhile and he wouldnt ship it to me
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52brezelfenster
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paging Mr Henry. John Henry to the parts counter please.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to think why the parts arn't with the car anymore....... Sad
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im going to guess someone is building a kool kustom.....ya know,"slam it on earlies"......
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Rich's 50
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes
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mr. warehouse
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hugheseum wrote:
im going to guess someone is building a kool kustom.....ya know,"slam it on earlies"......


and you wonder why people won't ship you free parts.

Rolling Eyes

Thanks for the PM's from everyone else. I guess no one wants to post their opinions on values publicly?

For the record, I've been told any where from $3000 - $7500 on the turnkey engine, $250 - $500 on the beam, $1000 - $1800 for the trans, $250 - $1000 for the complete brakes

That's $4500 on the low end and $10,800 on the high end.

None if it is "for sale" or out of the car yet.


Last edited by mr. warehouse on Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give you $100 for the lot, but only because I hate to see you get stuck with all that junk Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

52brezelfenster wrote:
Paging Mr Henry. John Henry to the parts counter please.


Yes and Greg e-mailed me with the same question a few days ago, and since it was not one of those "easy answer" questions, I have yet to have gotten back to him....

As for the engine, as many of us know, the devil is in the details, and also the running condition of it. It looks fairly correct in the pic above, but I would like to know the engine number, and if it is a March or earlier. If it is, it appears to have the correct intake, later should have a jacketed K. I would also like to know if it has the correct lower tin and heater boxes (the thread "The engine it deserves" here for pics of that).

I completely correct and 100% perfect mechanically sound engine (ie. fresh rebuild) from 1950 I would value at around $9k, but that is with ALL the correct stuff. And I mean ALL of it. Start missing correct intakes, tin, star coils, carbs, pulleys, etc, and the value drops by the thousands very quickly.

So without making assumptions about what I can't see in the pic, I would place the value of that engine in the $3k to maybe $8k range, with variances for the running condition as well.

I got a freshly rebuilt engine for my '50 last year, and although the deal I made with the seller was somewhat of a complex cash and parts swap, I think we agreed the value of the long block was about $3500. As you know, all that correct HW that goes on top of a long block can be very spendy.

And '50 was the all aluminum engine... = worth more.

As for a 10 year old rebuild, the potential buyer would have to weigh the risk of that. An engine that has sat for 10 years after a rebuild is not the same as one built very recently by a reputable builder. Tranny probably, engine no.

As for beam, Id say $150-$450 depending on condition and usability of the mechanical parts, links, joints etc. Tranny $200-$1000 depending on same.

Hope that helps Greg, Just my opinions. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner....
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Last edited by johnshenry on Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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mr. warehouse
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks John.

I'll try to get some detail pics of the engine tomorrow and post them here.


I know this engine is missing the "X" plate on the heater boxes,
I can't remember the shape of the heater boxes right now.
Star coil is there
D Regulator is there
Screw type wire tube clamps.
Correct "stripe" on the bowl of the carb.

The engine is a 1-0214XXX (Oct. '50) so should it have a jacketed manifold instead of the non jacketed it has now. However the car it's in is a 148XXX (Jan '50) so what does that mean? Switched and made to look older?

I know the engine runs, I got it to that point with little work myself. I'm still hunting down info on the rebuilder. I'm waiting for a call back for that info. Hopefully I can get some specs on the engine internals, etc. at that point.

Edit....

I just read through the engine it deserves thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...mp;start=0

That thread alone makes me want to do a correct resto on this engine and mount it on a stand in the corner...with the tranny next to it....and the front end underneath.


WOW

Shocked
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I replied to Greg in a PM:

Quote:
There should not be a 4-5 month discrepancy between the body and chassis dates. Especially not for 1950 when production was at a furious pace. They would not leave a body laying around for that long. I wonder if the body was just re-tagged with the ID tag from the original body. What is holding the plate on? Do the rivets look original? Look in the gallery for pics of original rivets Also look at the back side. Some people grind the rivets off from the back, and glue the faces of them on the tag and then just glue the tag on.


Greg, when you look at the lower tin, look for those X plate flanges even if the X plate is not there. Flanges = correct tin.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could likely part that engine out as-is for over $5K, so not sure how anyone could estimate a low end value near $3K.

The early non-jacketed manifolds have always been a bit more plentiful than the jacketed version based on several of my experiences, so either it was just available at the time or dressed on purpose for a Jan car, either way not a big deal, so can you either keep that one on it or sell it to get the correct jacketed one for that month engine. Its nice to see the finer details as the screw manifold clamps, correct carb, oil breather, and baling wire clips on the 383 (but you'd have to pull the 383 to check if its correct without the O ring on the shaft = more money).

Lower tin parts are nowhere as big a deal as the sexy money parts that need to be there when you pop the decklid. Most folks only go as far underneath to seeing if the VW stamped muffler is there and thats it, so until there is a VW concours event I don't see the value for lower tin prices creeping up or adding much more value to a complete engine.

Therefore, maybe you can tack on another $300-$500 in value if all the correct lower tin is there and thats it. But halve that if either the heater boxes or shoe boxes are incorrect, its just how it is regardless of how much value you might place on these parts being correct, nothing more than supply and demand. After all these past years if lower tin values were comparable to engine bay parts value we would of already seen reproductions from our pals in Argentina.

You could spot weld on simple L flanges onto later shoeboxes if needed to dress the tin with any reproduction $50 X plate for authenticity sake.

Wouldn't bother me if the engine has mostly sat for 10 years, as long as it was either run once in awhile or turned over periodically, but barring any funny noises, excess smoke exhaust, and measured/noted in spec compression in each cylinder, I'd say its not an issue. I'd just rebuild the carb, put in fresh fluids, and then take a short youtube video of it running from a few spots around the engine, it will only add value and support the selling price @$8K.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently went through the process of buying the correct parts to make a 25hp engine look correct (shroud, coil, carb, fuel pump, intake, air cleaner, pulley, generator, NOS Muffler, D regulator, etc...). It was SPENDY. And I didn't even have to get into a rebuild situation.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

$3k on the engine assumes all wrong lower tin, and unusable internals, needing a complete rebuild and/or replacement parts. Rings could be rusted to the cylinder walls if the engine was not turned over periodically and environment was somewhat damp, although that is unlikely. No engine-saavy person will pay top dollar ("fresh rebuild" from a reputable engine builder price) for an engine that has been sitting for 10 years. Base assumption is that it will need to be torn down and minimally inspected.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shroud $250
coil $300 (skinny, fats are a bit cheaper)
carb $200
fuel pump $150
intake (JK) $1000
air cleaner $500
pulley $100
generator $250
NOS Muffler $500
D regulator $200

Total: $3450

Those are my observed "nominal" prices. Not "steals" but not always available any time you want them either. The engine in Greg's pic seems to have all of them except the intake, and his coil is a "fatty".

Greg, you might check the date code on the distributor, generator and D reg also. See the thread on "Bosch date codes". A discriminating buyer in a high dollar sale will want to know those as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What was the difference in application between skinny vs fat star coils? Was one a dealer replacement, or is one early vs late?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, both are correct, and both can be seen in period docs. However skinny ones are seen more often and almost universally in the service related documents (like the Sept '50 Service Manual). As such, I think the skinnys are more desirable and also harder to find and more expensive.

Fattys were likely used in other cars and are found in a 12volt version also, making it probably that they were a longer running Bosch product than the skinny ones.

Those are just my observations and opinions. Perhaps others can chime in with additional details and documentation.

From the 9/51 owners manual:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Although not it does not appear to show a jacketed K, so the photo is likely much older than the publication.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brezelwerks wrote:
..... Its nice to see the finer details as the screw manifold clamps, correct carb, oil breather, and baling wire clips on the 383 (but you'd have to pull the 383 to check if its correct without the O ring on the shaft = more money).......


Bailing wire clips are not correct on a '50 engine. '50-'52 owners manuals show solid band clips in several photos with other 25hp details correct. Wire clips do not show up in the owners manual until '54.

Also, I have seen no evidence to VW logo stamped mufflers used in production. The engine assembly line pics show unlogo'ed mufflers as do some manuals. They also all have welded on tailpipes. I believe that VW logo'ed mufflers were replacement parts only, and all had clamp on tailpipes. Anyone have evidence to the contrary??

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: '50 running gear value.... Reply with quote

mr. warehouse wrote:
I have my hands on a 25hp engine out of a '50.


Any input would be great.


mr. warehouse wrote:


None if it is "for sale" or out of the car yet.


i'm confused.
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