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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:46 am Post subject: |
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In a word: distributorless.
That, or 2 distributors. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Mr. Electric Wizard Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2003 Posts: 2846 Location: Smyrna, TN
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Gotcha. _________________ "Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know."
~ Cullen Hightower
(T)exas (C)oalition (B)uses
(H)eidenhammer (B)ully (B)oyz
--1966 De Luxe Camper |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:56 am Post subject: |
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or a twin plug distributor..
I have done it 5 different ways.
It's worth the hassles! _________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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gears Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002 Posts: 4391 Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: |
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I used to do this mod in the early 90's for various performance VWs and 4-cyl Porsches. ("New Products" April '92 Hot VWs)
heads and distributor:
various Type I heads"
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Twntrbo Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2009 Posts: 23 Location: Adrian,mi
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Is there a available distributor for twin plugs? |
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Unkl Ian Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2008 Posts: 288 Location: Near Toronto
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Twntrbo wrote: |
Is there a available distributor for twin plugs? |
Some Japanese motors ran dual plugs with a distributor and two coils
I think Ford used EDIS and coil packs on the dual plug Rangers. |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Twntrbo wrote: |
Is there a available distributor for twin plugs? |
YES!
And I now have a method of using the 009, 010,019 or 050 dizzy to fire coil packs for twin plugs.
Don't bother doing it if you plan on keeping low CR and are afraid of cylinder pressures..
Gears, I always liked your way of thinking...I'd like to find some of those dizzys you were using!
I am sure you had plenty of people tell you that it was wasted effort, just like I have. _________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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I would be interested in a twin plug ignition also.
Jake, any chance your going to sell this "conversion" for the 009 dizzy?
Craig |
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gears Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002 Posts: 4391 Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Jake, I installed a simple pair of mini switches beneath the dash on my Ghia, one for each coil ... a simple way to demo the difference between single plug and dual plug.
My original dizzy was just an adapter plate whittled from an old cam gear, heat shrink onto an 009. The dizzy in the photo is a later 1-piece billet body. I'd merely use a shaft assembly with weights and bits from 009, 010, or 031, along with my own body and adapter parts.
The early rotors would fly apart at 6000 engine rpm, ruining the cap too. It wasn't until the rotor material was changed from cheap plastic to strong Zytel that the mod became worthwhile.
Gary Peloquin may have been the first guy to use dual crank fire for a drag car (with the Scat heads in photo) ... if I recall correctly, dual ignition was promptly banned. |
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bdkw1 Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2008 Posts: 798 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Jake Raby wrote: |
Twntrbo wrote: |
Is there a available distributor for twin plugs? |
YES!
And I now have a method of using the 009, 010,019 or 050 dizzy to fire coil packs for twin plugs. |
Nissan Z24 cap and rotor? |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Gears,
Yep, they always ban the things that "Do not work".. I had a heated debate about the usage of twin plugs with another well known builder last year on this topic..
I've never really been able to gather back to back data on the twin plug benefits on an N/A engine because to get the max from the technology I have always ran higher CR than the single plug would support on the same grade of fuel, so the variables were too great.. The least I have ever ran with twin plugs is 10.8:1 CR.
The bigger bore TIV engines REALLY see a big gain from this with their larger bores and chambers as the two flame fronts dramatically reduce the optimized total timing of the engine.
The twin coil 009 driven kit is through testing and is being employed on my turn key engines now.. Not much of this technology is sold otherwise as I am afraid of someone applying the components improperly would occur. Its a guarantee that not adhering to the dramatic differences in tuning and engine design will create a failure that could stain the reputation of the technology.
All it takes is one. With a turn key I have quite a bit of control over these complexities.
Its a different world, not many conventional VW people are open minded enough to accept it. Thats why I LOVE it! _________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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gears Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002 Posts: 4391 Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: |
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I pursued the twin plug thing in 1990, after being told how a Big Name shop had tried it, failed, and proclaimed it couldn't be done. There's probably still a few guys running around with my twin-plug conversions today. I kept the last 1-piece dizzy for my display case, and I think Pele Bug still has my original 2-piece.
The reason twin plugs were banned when Gary showed up at the track was because it worked too well. He told me his already high horsepower engine gained an additional 20 hp, but I was never able to verify numbers or take it to the next level, as my role was really just as the underground machinist. I even contemplated a sectioned waterboxer head ... now there's a head with which "it can't be done" ... way easier to start from scratch with a new design. |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
I pursued the twin plug thing in 1990, after being told how a Big Name shop had tried it, failed, and proclaimed it couldn't be done. |
Undoubtedly the big name shop you are referring to is headed up by the same person that challenged me last year and stated that twin plugs "were just fancy gizmos that would never make power"... He stated that they attempted it 25 years ago with no luck.Anything that breaks their precious ability to build multiple engines all generically designed is deemed "not to work" because they don't want to actually have to vary their build sheets.
Obviously that work was done with the same generic combos that they used for single plug engines, not creating an optimum working environment for the twin plug arrangement to shine.
Chamber shapes, sizes, CR, camsheft and etc are very critical to the optimization of a twin plug arangement. I have found that even exhaust systems tend to need alteration when employing twin plugs.
I first did it in 1997 but it took till 99 to get it worked out.. _________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Twin Plugs can and do create a faster and more directed burn. They work best with a pent roof combustion chamber like in a 4 valve per cylinder chamber but they also work well in a wedge chamber such as a VW chamber. I have some photos taken from different types of combustion chambers and they clearly show that the twin plug setup does compleate the combustion event 30% faster than any single plust setup. Jakes heads are well designed and he does have the data to prove that they work well in VW applications. |
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10077 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:05 am Post subject: |
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I have an '82 Datsun pickup with the twin-plug Z22 engine. Long ago when it was my daily it gradually got to running off, big loss of power. Started looking around and found one of the two coil-to-cap HT leads had rubbed against a hose and the juice had carbonised the rubber until it was grounding out that way, cancelling one bank of plugs. Isolated the wires and it was like adding a second engine, the jump in power was HUGE! Two sparks in a chamber designed for them makes an amazing difference, and without the second spark is a dog. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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66zeke Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2007 Posts: 118 Location: bonsall ca.
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Rolls Royce used to use dual plugs but they had one set coming out of a magneto. the reason behind this was the distributer would provide great low rpm spark and the magneto would handle the higher rpms. so I think Mr. Raby should use a crank trigger dis. and a vertex or somthing |
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Bones 53 Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 661 Location: Reno NV
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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I can see how using a coil pack for each plug would work but how does the distributor fire two plugs at the same time for each cylinder? Does anyone have some pictures of the distributors being used and the wiring setup?
Is there a distributor / ignition system available to purchase for twin plug applications? |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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We just finished the testing of the simplest method yet.. It uses any VW dizzy and acts as a trigger to fire a pair of copil packs that are connected to the two banks of plugs.
Its a 689.00 set up, but it works well and makes the dual ignition arrangement a true bolt on with all off the shelf parts. _________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to be like this, but...
$690? Pffft.
If all you're doing is firing pairs of plugs in parallel (at the same time, a la Alfa Romeo TS engine), the same thing can be accomplished for much less money. Just use 2 EDIS systems in parallel, with a Megajolt/Megasquirt controlling it. If you want a REAL twin plug system that has some real tuning power (perhaps you already do), all you need is another Megajolt. Then you can have 2 entirely separate spark maps, so you would be able to experiment with leading/trailing schemes like the rotaries do. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sure it could be.. and we have done it and have probably experienced every way to fire twin plugs ever available..
Thats because I have been pushing this technology for over a decade with the ignition system being THE achilles heel from day one and the limiting factor.
Fact is the twin plugs don't make any more power with lead/ trail settings for the plugs as I have went to the ends of the earth to apply these sorts of changes and test the changes. What has worked best is simultaneous firing with high enough voltage to overcome the static from the elevated cylinder pressures that we love to use with twin plug arrangements.
BUT the majority of who I cater to wants nothing to do with any system that requires computer interface..
What may be simple to you isn't simple to others... The majority of those I deal with don't have a tool box, or I supply them with tools to assemble their engine kit. Some of these people want the simplest, easiest to understand system possible that snaps into place in a few minutes..
Its a different world. _________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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