New book about Josef Ganz claiming he invented the KDFwagen

[abgwin]

since i'm woefully ignorant about whether this might be true or not, tossing it out here for discussion. Post on Autoblog about a new book claiming a Hungarian-born Jewish man named Josef Ganz invented a car that would be co-opted by Porsche at Hitler's direction.

I've never heard this story, so interested in others here with more knowledge.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/08/ferdinand-porsche-or-an-unknown-jew-new-book-documents-the-fath/
_________________
Siglines don't hurt people: people hurt people.

[Harris]

Interesting article.

Unfortunately, no one is around to question to get the true facts.

Supposedly Ferdinand Porsche and his chief designer Karl Rabe worked together as early as 1911. They both knew about and examined an aircraft engine that could have become the flat four. Other cars had rear engines too, but not all aircooled. None were reliable. Possibly Porsche and Rabe took ideas from everything they knew about including bodies, transaxles, weight distribution, etc. I doubt they directly copied anyones work specifically as it took years of testing to get the VW right from front bumper to rear bumper.

Other than Porsche himself this is, I belive, the original crew
KARL RABE(CHIEF ENGINEER)
JOSEF ZAHRADNIK(STEERING)
JOSEF KALES(ENGINES)
FRANZ REIMSPIESS(FLAT FOUR DESIGN)
KARL FROHLICH(TRANSAXLES)
JOSEF MICKI(AERODYNAMICS)
FERRY PORSCHE(ASSISTANT)
ADOLPH ROSENBURGER(ACCOUNTING AND MINOR PARTNER)

Ideas probably came from all. Regardless where the ideas came from, the Porsche team perfected them all into one car. And, yes with Hitler's money. But, Porsche had thought out the basics before meeting with Hilter.
This is my take on what I've read.

[Bruce]

[MDKG]

I came across this story a couple of times already even in some older VW books.

Some Dutch journalist has been investigating this quite thoroughly and wrote a complete book about it. The local newspapers are picking this up (got an article today from my mom!) and a production company JipiejajeeTV is planning a documentary sometime next year. Here's the site about the story

http://www.ganz-volkswagen.org/documentary.htm

[Rick73Super]

I'd like to read this book when it is published in English.

[EverettB]

The publisher of this book emailed me today to inform me that the book is going to be available in the USA/UK in December.

[KTPhil]

I would be most skeptical about a claim that only comes to light 75 years after the fact.

No single idea in the Bug was unique to it. The design team had experience with many other makes and designs.

If this combo of design elements was so easy to mass produce then why did no one else do it? They didn't.

Ideas alone don't make cars; research, engineering, testing, manufacturing engineering and good plant design do. Porsche put all the pieces together, something no one else was evidently capable of doing.

One could now cherry pick and make a claim. Seems most self-serving and unfair to wait until those one is impuning are no longer around to defend themselves.

[Dave24]

[abgwin]

I don't think Ganz "waited around" to make his claim. He fled Nazi Germany after being arrested, essentially for being Jewish.

If the Wikipedia page is to be trusted at all, sounds like he was designing something very much like the KDF wagen as early as 1923, which would certainly put it before swing axles and rear engines were "common".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Ganz#Prototypes_and_the_Standard_Superior

Independent wheel suspension, especially of the drive wheels, was virtually non-existent in those days of solid FRONT axles.

The book sounds worth reading, before one decides the claims are frivolous.
_________________
Siglines don't hurt people: people hurt people.

[KTPhil]

From an engineering standpoint, I see very little in common between the car pictured and the VW as Porsche developed it. One can contrive wording to make them sound similar but a cursory examination of the details show that there is very little in common. "Engineering Father of the VW" is to laugh!

I won't enrich a deceiver by buying the book only to find the claims are inflated.

[Paul Windisch]

I am skeptical myself. I mean, that car looks nothing like a Beetle. Many design characteristics of the Beetle have been used in many cars over the last century. Torsion bars were equipped on Toronados. Rear engines were used in numerous applications. I mean, really, should we credit cavemen for the Beetle design because it is equipped with round wheels?

I admittedly don't know the whole story, but it just seems a little too far fetched. Ransom E. Olds was the first auto maker to mass produce automobiles too, but Henry Ford perfected the assembly line. Ganz may have "discovered" many of the design features, but Porsche (presumably) put them all together in a functioning package.

Of course the possibility exists that Hitler didn't want one of those "Jews" being credited for a superior "German" design. In the end, I have a Beetle in my garage, and for that I am thankful.
_________________
*ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*

1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor

2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6

MAHLE Service Solutions
Applications Engineer

[VintageVulture]

Very interesting!! I read "Small Wonder" last year. This will be a great follow up.
_________________
The best things in life aren't Things
(they're Buses)

[nerfer]

[pre67vw]

I've read the book and it's a great story, it's an exciting read that gives an insite into what was going on in Germany at the time. Very highly recommended.

After reading the book, do I think that Ganz designed the Beetle and Porsche/Hitler 'stole' the idea from him? No I don't, but I guess that sensationalisation sells books. The book plays down Porsche's work at Zundapp and NSU on a cheap peoples car and instead makes him out to only be interested in racing cars.

I do think however that Ganz had a part in the whole story, what he invented or didn't invent is probably lost in time (he couldn't afford to Patent everything, plus many patents were allegedly stolen from him and aquired by Tatra).

According to the book, Nordhoff was trying to set him up with a VW pension as recognition of his efforts. If Ganz had not been Jewish then he may well have been asked to join Porsche's team and his part would be widely accepted.
_________________
--------------------------------------
www.pre67vw.com
--------------------------------------

[808OvalGreasemonkey]

I agree that a lot of Dr. Porsches "ideas" for the Beetle were totally stolen frm Tatra cars.

[andk5591]

[Bruce]

[79SuperVert]

I placed my order. Sounds like a good addition to my VW library.
_________________
Central Jersey VW Society

Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt.

[Harris]

pre67vw wrote:

[79SuperVert]

The things I've read about Ganz imply that he had a good shot at being selected to develop the Beetle until the Nazis realized he was Jewish. Porsche was only one of numerous people striving to be selected as the designer.
_________________
Central Jersey VW Society

Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt.