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ALB Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2008 Posts: 3480 Location: beautiful suburban Wet Coast of Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I seem to remember someone (Nick? Jimmy??) say that just gouging the lifters moved approx twice as much oil into the heads. Tell me where that's a bad thing? Don't worry about it; I really think this is a case of someone spouting something they've heard (or read) as fact. Where did you run into this character? And you're right, just doing the lifters won't get the same results as the full set of modifications, but it will move more oil up to the heads, and that's definitely an improvement.
I just had a look again at Bob's article and he opened up the oil channel in the cam bearing saddle before he modified the lifters; while your case is apart maybe add that to your list? _________________ On a lifelong mission to prove (much to my wife's dismay) that Immaturity is Forever!! |
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Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3682 Location: Eastern WA
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:28 pm Post subject: mods for better lifter and rocker lubrication.. |
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I have been running the modified Berg lifters with no other mods (didn't know about them before build) for two years, no ill effects. I will be doing Bobs mods on my 2165 before putting it back together. _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
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i_am_cool_fred Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2004 Posts: 1743 Location: Benton, AR
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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i prefer to leave the other site nameless, but all the info i've read and with people posting WITH experience i think i know the answer...which is the answer i honestly wanted to hear.
so guess it's out to the ol' garage. _________________ proud owner of a defunct 1979 sunroof kombi
Brian Denning, as seen on Gearz TV |
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Sigurd Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006 Posts: 2639 Location: Rockford, IL
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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If it's CLF or STF, you can admit it. I'm over at both of those regularly. Not to say that we don't have sharp people; we do...absolutely. But our sharp people are also active over there too. STF in particular seems more geared towards T4 and turbos. |
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risk Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2004 Posts: 710 Location: Stumpbroke, Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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i_am_cool_fred wrote: |
i prefer to leave the other site nameless, but all the info i've read and with people posting WITH experience i think i know the answer...which is the answer i honestly wanted to hear.
so guess it's out to the ol' garage. |
Berg recommeded one small slot, .02" wide by .02" deep, whereas the HVX mod is three large slots. I can see using the berg lifters without drilling the galley or modding the rockers, since the extra oil flow isn't that much, but not the HVX modded lifters. This is where you could run into trouble..
Remember that one oil galley feeds all eight lifters, both heads, the cam bearings, and if you're running lube a lobes, those too.
The stock lifter design only allows oil to pass when you're near the top of the lift cycle... like a valve, so you build pressure when not on lift. HVX allows for a much higher volume of oil to pass constantly..so now you've opened the "valve" up all the way, all the time.
So the big question is...Now that you aren't building up pressure in between oiling cycles, will you have enough overall pressure to get sufficient oil to the rockers? Will you end up starving the lifter bores?
You said that just modding the lifters will let more oil go to the heads, that may be true.. but you aren't doing anything to use that oil once in the head.. doing the HVX mod on the rocker and shaft lets you make use of the extra oil flow.
Just doing one of the mods is a gamble.. thats why I advised against it. Maybe it will help, maybe not. Hoover had the most success when all the mods were done.
Last edited by risk on Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:35 am; edited 2 times in total |
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i_am_cool_fred Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2004 Posts: 1743 Location: Benton, AR
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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risk wrote: |
i_am_cool_fred wrote: |
i prefer to leave the other site nameless, but all the info i've read and with people posting WITH experience i think i know the answer...which is the answer i honestly wanted to hear.
so guess it's out to the ol' garage. |
Yeah, this is the ONLY forum out there where you can find people WITH experience... nice. Here is the thread you're referring to where you didn't get the answers you wanted..
http://www.volksrods.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30837&highlight=2276+rice
Berg recommeded one small slot, .01" wide by .01" deep, whereas the HVX mod is three large slots. I can see using the berg lifters without drilling the galley or modding the rockers, since the extra oil flow isn't that much, but not the HVX modded lifters. This is where you could run into trouble..
Remember that one oil galley feeds all eight lifters, both heads, the cam bearings, and if you're running lube a lobes, those too.
The stock lifter design only allows oil to pass when you're near the top of the lift cycle... like a valve, so you build pressure when not on lift. HVX allows for a much higher volume of oil to pass constantly..so now you've opened the "valve" up all the way, all the time.
So the big question is...Now that you aren't building up pressure in between oiling cycles, will you have enough overall pressure to get sufficient oil to the rockers? Will you end up starving the lifter bores?
You said that just modding the lifters will let more oil go to the heads, that may be true.. but you aren't doing anything to use that oil once in the head.. doing the HVX mod on the rocker and shaft lets you make use of the extra oil flow.
Just doing one of the mods is a gamble.. thats why I advised against it. Maybe it will help, maybe not. Hoover had the most success when all the mods were done. |
josh, the whole reason i want more oil to the heads is to keep the heads cooler...'nuff said. the lifters with the mods already done were sold years ago...you think everyone that used them did the rest of the mods??? no. i wanted someone elses opinion that's why i posted here. on volksrods i only got two peoples opinion...i wanted a broader horizon of opinion..you're right, the samba isn't the only site that has people with "experience"...but there are more here than any other site which is why i brought on the question here too. you have your opinion others have theirs as well.
if i blow my motor again...i'll say you're right. untill then. i'm running it like that. high flow oil pump and the mod...don't see the problem
and you say "Hoover had the most success when all the mods were done." so you aren't denying that some success could be had with just that mod. _________________ proud owner of a defunct 1979 sunroof kombi
Brian Denning, as seen on Gearz TV |
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bugninva Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004 Posts: 8858 Location: sound it out.
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:14 am Post subject: |
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i_am_cool_fred wrote: |
[ josh, the whole reason i want more oil to the heads is to keep the heads cooler...'nuff said. . |
Fred, if you want to use oil for cooling purposes, think about installing some spraybars in the valve covers... this would be fed from the full flow oiling and deliver alot of oil for cooling... it will require a deeper sump and probably make an external cooler necessary... _________________
[email protected] wrote: |
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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jbbugs Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2002 Posts: 2150 Location: Behind the wheel
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:16 am Post subject: |
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ALB wrote: |
jbbugs- Sorry, forgot to ask earlier; are you doing all the mods to these motors? |
I haven't done the oil mod to the rockers themselves. I really don't see what the the little groove between the two oiling holes in the rocker is going to acheive.
I figure when the oil gets pumped up through the pushrods into the rocker arms, it's STILL going to end up in the rocker area of the heads.
What benefit is it to get more oil to the adjuster threads? I don't see it.
If the oil is clean, I've never had any problems with the adjuster screws/nuts. They are pretty much getting sprayed with oil anytime the motor is running.
I can see some benefit to cutting the grooves in the Rockershafts, as I had a rocker actually get seized, and broke in half on one of my old Circle Track race engines. An oil groove might have prevented that.
I'm getting ready to rebuild a customers' Formula Vee race engine, and I will be doing these oil mods to it. Should be a perfect test for it.
Paul _________________ Drag bus! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MOVmKdhX4
69 OG paint Transporter
73' Super Beetle Champcar Endurance Roadracer
Patina my ass, that's a Rust Bucket! |
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i_am_cool_fred Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2004 Posts: 1743 Location: Benton, AR
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:30 am Post subject: |
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bugninva wrote: |
i_am_cool_fred wrote: |
[ josh, the whole reason i want more oil to the heads is to keep the heads cooler...'nuff said. . |
Fred, if you want to use oil for cooling purposes, think about installing some spraybars in the valve covers... this would be fed from the full flow oiling and deliver alot of oil for cooling... it will require a deeper sump and probably make an external cooler necessary... |
i actually talked to risk more on the phone last night about all these mods.
basically the other cam mod that is mentioned in hoovers blog could easily be done it's just a matter of finding a long enough drill bit to get that right lobe on the front drilled out. i may go ahead and do this to it while it's apart...if i can find the bit (i hope i can) the rocker shaft explination that he gave me was once the oil travels up the push rod it has nowhere to go once the motor warms up and the rockers get tight. you do this so it can lube the rocker and ultimately dump into the head. again, something i may consider seeing as how the motor is torn down right now. thanks for the more thorough explanation on the phone with the case being right in front of me.
now, is the lifter mod alone going to help or hinder???? some say yay some say nay, i think we can all agree to disagree
as far as spraying oil from the full flow...i don't think a 1641SP with a mild cam will need that much cooling. not to mention a lowered bus with a deep sump is just begging for problems...i just want little more cooling to the heads since i drive a breadloaf at 70mph all day long. the sprayers may be a bit overkill although i am interested in this for a bigger motor down the road. _________________ proud owner of a defunct 1979 sunroof kombi
Brian Denning, as seen on Gearz TV |
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earthquake Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008 Posts: 3984 Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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What if you were to chuck the lifter in a lathe and turn the section between the grooves down about .010" ? would that hurt support of the lifter in the bore? Racing Beat that builds Mazda Rotaries found that by cutting small grooves in the cooling jackets that it would reduce engine temps, How about if you were to take a small cut off wheel and cut grooves in the head [valve train area], I'm not talking big grooves just the thickness of the cut off wheel and about .030 deep about .125" apart, do you think this would help cooling of the head?
Casey _________________ 74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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Lawrence_0485 Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2007 Posts: 465 Location: Arkansas
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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earthquake wrote: |
How about if you were to take a small cut off wheel and cut grooves in the head [valve train area], I'm not talking big grooves just the thickness of the cut off wheel and about .030 deep about .125" apart, do you think this would help cooling of the head?
Casey |
do you mean to make it look kinda like a heatsink. i would think as long as it didn't make the head weak, it would prob help. would definetly have to run an external cooler since you would be feeding more heat into the oil.
Fred i found that long azzz drill bit. you just gotta find a 1/8'' pipe plug. i have the drill bit and tap. _________________ [email protected] |
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BugMan114 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007 Posts: 3744 Location: Ellenwood, GA
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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old thread, i kno, but such a good topic, that rarely gets discussed.
were you talking about cutting grooves inside the head? if so that seems like suck a good idea, to dissapate heat. i wish someone would do a step by step process with pics showing exactly how to do these HVX mods, and also a good list of tools needed. that would be awsome. Are these mods something one could do with some basic hand tools, and a drill press?
Also, from what i've heard, running hydrolic lifters has always been a bad idea due to the bad oiling system, but with these HVX mods, would hydrolic lifters now be a viable option?
like someone said before, sure the mods aren't needed, and the motor will run without it, but on the other hand, the motor was only designed to run about 50hp, so bigger motors are going to need as much cooling and oiling as possible. I'm in the process of building a 2110 turbo motor thats going to be used to haul my pop up trailer (bout 2000lbs), so it's gonna need as much help in the cooling department as possible. _________________ 1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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The only way the right side lifters and pushrods and thus heads... get oil is the little passage around the center cam bearing
One mod is to drill the oil galleys so oil can also flow to the right side around the thrust cam bearing as well, and to generally port out the areas to get more oil to the right side.
The grooved lifters supposedly also add a lot to the oil flow. My understanding was that the MAIN reason this was done was to fix a problem created by using reground and highlift cams. The lifters have grooves around them, that are supposed to be aligned to the oil drillings, so that oil flows around them normally, then when the lifter is moved up to open the valve oil flows up the pushrod. If you have a highlift cam or a cam with a small base circle it can screw up the alignment of the holes so oil is restricted.
So we have two real issues here, you don't have to solve them the exact same was as Bob did, but it is good to be aware and a little attention to the issue could help for sure |
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BugMan114 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007 Posts: 3744 Location: Ellenwood, GA
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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I want to do everything mentioned in bob's HVX mods to ensure i have the best oiling and cooling possible. as well as any other mods deemed nessecary. this is a long term engine build, that i've slowly been collecting parts for, so a few more weeks or even months of case machining is fine with me. I've also been contemplating using hydrolic valves for reliability sake. even tho it will be a 2110 turbo motor, it will not be used to race or anything of the sort, just for the extra power for hauling my pop up to camp out at shows. around 8lbs of boost. so i want to ensure that any extra heat generated from the large motor and turbo is taken care of. i want this to be as reliable as possible. It will be fuel injected via megasquirt (but thats a whole nutha can of beans there, lol). I don't mind spending the extra money and time.
I like the internal fin idea, i'll prolly attempt somethin like that on my heads. with all the oil splashin around in there, thats bound to help head temps a little.
When one opens up the groove under the cam bearing, does one typically just use a dremmel, or fancy complex machining equipment? i'm pretty good with a dremmel, lol. i would think that since the area under the cam bearing really isn't important as far as the acutal suface goes (not a bearing surface), that is shouldn't be an issue as long as all burrs are taken care of. versus dremmeling lifters. i wouldn't be comfortable doing that as that surface is important as any mistakes will destroy the lifter bores.
And as far as drilling out the oil gallies, it sounds like its as easy as finding a long drill bit, and a drill press, no? would it really be that simple, or is there more to it then that? I aleady have a drill press, and would be a piece of cake to secure the block in the correct position.
Thanks for the quick relpies
EDIT: normally i'd start a new thread and not hijack one, but since this one was dead, i figure its OK, lol _________________ 1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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hydro lifters and 'reliability" are not the right idea IMO
solid lifters are definitely more reliable
hydro lifters are maintenance free tho, if they work right, they will save you from having to adjust the valves once or twice a year
yeah, dremel is perfect for that. a long 1/4 drill is what you want to do the drilling, can be done by hand drill, but you have to be very careful not to drill too deep! |
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BugMan114 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007 Posts: 3744 Location: Ellenwood, GA
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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i would think that with hydrolic lifters, you will always have zero pushrod gap, correct? versus the gap you have with solid lifters prior to warm-up. wouldnt't that help as far as reliability, and longjevity? or is the the wear from that temporary gap prior to warm up not a significant factor?
but again, i always hear on the other hydro lifter topics, and the reason for not using them is due to the terrible oiling system, but the HVX mods take care of that. so why would hydro lifters not be a good idea? is it that no one makes a good quality lifter? or its prone to failure? or will it simply not work in the case (i.e. lifter bores not strong enough).
P.S. congradulations on the advil win. your vid pwnd _________________ 1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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volkyoo Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2010 Posts: 417 Location: dominican republic.
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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the factory (mexican) hydro lifter, its different , the oil "gap" its really wide and more deep... instead of two lines separated!
just a tought! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:01 am Post subject: |
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That is a good question. Based on what I have seen, the valve train parts do not last longer with hydro lifters.
The main advantage is they are quiet and do not require adjustment
It would make sense that being smoother and quieter would mean less wear, but actually the rockers and pushrod tips seem to wear MORE with them, I think it is because they are always under pressure so they don't get oiled as well
Since a vw engine is loud anyway I never even thought about trading power for quieter valves.... maybe if it was watercooled.....maybe if it was a subaru or WBX, tho subaru went to solids........they had a rash of problems with hydro adjusters |
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lostinbaja Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2004 Posts: 4036 Location: Frankfort, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:37 am Post subject: |
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I don't know how much oil you actually need/want in the heads.
A few years ago "Muffler Mike" Sheldon did a test, he installed a plexiglass window in his valve covers and ran the engine ( I don't remember the RPM) but it literally filled the valve covers with oil. This was all done before he started running his turbo engine. I can't find the info on his website anymore. _________________ Jerry...
If it's being towed, it must be a trailer!
"Vee Grow Too Soon Oldt Und Too Late Schmardt"
RIP Morgan
My photos
http://www.manxgallery.org/gallery/album92 |
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BugMan114 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007 Posts: 3744 Location: Ellenwood, GA
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Ahh, I see now. That makes a lot more sense. So solids it is then.
Does anyone know of a place that sells 1/4 drill bits long enough, and of a good quality?
Also, I saw that video. And I believe the 3-4 side was the only cover that filled with oil, the 1-2 side had bearly any oil in it, IIRC. _________________ 1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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