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Good luck strikes again. Engine failure in Big Bear.
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Abelabelabel
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Location: Santa Ana, CA
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:26 am    Post subject: Good luck strikes again. Engine failure in Big Bear. Reply with quote

Hey all.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The good.

Vacation, other than car trouble was a blast. 3 dogs and 5 adults in a Van is the best.
Rental car made it down the mountain like a champ.

No one was hurt. we broke down, and easily pulled to the shoulder near a call box. AAA had no trouble locating us.

The bad.

My Van is broken again. Engine failure . . . . . . . . . . . .

Leaky head gasket, lost compression, bubbles in coolant even after replacing expansion tank, testing lid, multiple bleeds and test, and identifying (and fixing) two small leaks (bad hose connection, seep in soon-to-be-replaced-radiator) to hopefully ensure we could make it home. While on the trip! (I brought sooo many tools with me guys).

The ugly.

All of this within 2,000 mi of a supposed rebuild completed on 6/16/2015. The rebuild was either completely botched, or not performed completely at all. Or, somehow, I did something horrible to the vehicle.

After 500 miles I had an engine break in oil change, and shop was also supposed to take a second look at the rebuild to see how everything was going. 7/2/15

Coolant Hose inexplicably bursts after taking van through drive through. Shop supposedly pressure tests vehicle (I now doubt that they ran the motor warm which would have immediately identified the leaky head gaskets, which I strongly believe were never replaced, or installed properly). This was performed and completed 7/15/15.

The time since then, I decided to take matters in to my own hands, assuming that maybe there was something that I missed, and I also genuinely wanted to know my vehicle. Aaaaand needed to get un-ignorant enough to begin testing and verifying the work that was being done.

Trying to learn:

Replaced non-stock engine coil after crank-no-start problem.

Replaced Coolant light relay (which was missing, how did the shop miss this during the rebuild?)

Got pressure tester, and lots of extra coolant, and began testing coolant on an almost daily basis.

cleaned some grounds.

Replaced battery ground.

Replaced expansion tank + cap and tested, and tested, and tested.

Identified possible resister problem (on trip)

Identified very small radiator leak. (On trip)

Identified (and fixed) small hose leak to thermostat housing. (Thermostat housing, I found out, that was replaced by shop)

Suspected defective thermostat, as radiator fan seldom kicked in even though we identified boiling coolant once or twice. (Something else that was known by the shop that supposedly tested the actuators before the engine rebuild was in order). Stage 2 fan would kick in, an scare the hell out of us.


Silver linings.

The AAA tow truck driver was amazing.

We initially thought/hoped that the sudden loss of power and sputtering were just low fuel. Although the tank gauge showed anywhere from almost empty, to a 1/4 of a tnak, we figured it was possible. We spent about 10 minutes doing an old fashioned ass-end up bleed of the coolant line with a pretty consistent rev at 2000 - 3000 RPMs in the morning, and were already on our way to the closest gas station.

He gave us fuel, and then followed us as we limped to a gas station and power steering started to fail (not sure what was up with that), and we came to a wimpering stop in a Chevron after I kept having difficulty keeping the RPMS up in any gear.

He also revved the motor from the back of the van, revealing bubbles in the coolant (even though the engine was cold) To me that could only mean the one thing I had dreaded for the last few months after leaving the van at a local shop for 5 weeks to do a "rebuild"

He came back with his tow-truck proper and drove us to the local shop, which was closed on Sunday.

Then dropped us off at the local Hertz to get a one-way rental, and also stayed to make sure we could get a car, and that they were open. talk about going above and beyond times 100.

Turns out he fixes up old VW Westfalias in his free time, and has a 71 with a 2.0 aircooled waterboxer. (He called it a pancake engine) So he knew the shop, He knows VW, and said he'd talk to the shop owner the following day to help get the ball rolling on diagnosing everything. (Small town with one AAA Truck driver for the whole mountain).

This was the biggest stress relief of the weekend. Finally having someone that wasn't new to being able to diagnose and identify issues agree that the rebuild was either incomplete, or not performed at all.


So, I am sitting at work with a binder full of receipts that I've kept for all work performed by me and POS on both vans, and am awaiting a call from the Big Bear Shop.


The Samba

I know that you are all aware of my unusual positive attitude, and rest assured, I'm undeterred. I just want to turn this in to a reliable vehicle. But I'm also over budget. After turning this van in to a full time hobby to identify opportunities for easy enough DIY preventative maintenance, I've come to the conclusion that this shop has done less than the bare minimum. They had opportunities to identify these issues, and fix them. Engine failure. Barely two months after trying to hit the reset button, I'm right back where I started with this vehicle. That's just insanity.

Vehicle is about 100 miles away at the Big Bear shop, and am looking forward to a long discussion with the owner, and hopefully the amazing Tow Truck guy who helped us out big time.

My goal is to get a proper engine rebuild performed, even if I have to do more of the work myself. And to recoup as much of the expenses I've wasted with this shop to make it possible.

I'm not looking for a free lunch. And I'm not wanting to black list the shop, although the writing might be on the wall. I just don't like being stranded on the mountain due to multiple failures that were all related to aspects of the vehicle that were touched by the VW Mechanic I've been going to since March. (NOT Europro - Pete runs like a god-damned rusty champ).

My wishful thinking is that that this shop has had too many missed opportunities to help. My subsequent steep learning curve also seems to show that they were just being negligent. So I'd like to get the rebuild done right, and I feel like I know enough now to be the obsessed VW guy that gets in trouble micromanaging the whole thing. And I don't want it done by this shop. Just don't know if that's a possibility yet.

So. Any help on how I can make this happen would be most appreciated. The last thing I want to do is find myself in a position where I'm in small claims court, because I think that's a stupid waste of time and energy. The first engine failure is on me, I didn't know how to test and diagnose anything and took a very expensive drive to the closest VW shop to my house. But here we are at round two, and I'm still not K.O'd. But my Van still doesn't run right. So this is going to be a fight to the finish.

I just need to get this vehicle reliable without having to spend another $4,500 to fix a bad rebuild. That's just foolish.

I'll be adding photos of the trip on here as soon as I'm able. Just wanted to get this post up before the shop called, or before I got too busy to get this down and open to the community.

Red Vanagon
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Satch
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you have the right attitude. Keep focused and it will work out.
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Satch wrote:
Sounds like you have the right attitude. Keep focused and it will work out.


X2.
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seventyfo
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GW has 2.2 WBXrs on the shelf. It sucks that your shop got it wrong. I couldn't find anyone local that I trusted to do a RELIABLE rebuild, I feel like I got that from my GW engine. I've driven it across/around the country twice now and I wouldn't hesitate to jump in right now and do it again.
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Abelabelabel
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seventy - Thanks for that. I was thinking about taking a trip to Gowesty since they're relatively "Local." If I can grab a shelf motor and get that put in, I might go down that route.

I've just gotta figure out how to deal with the shop, since making any better move is cost prohibitive to me until I turn my mechanic upside-down and shake all of my change back out of 'em. Rolling Eyes
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To diagnose how severe your engine damage may be, start with a compression test. Normally, a compression test is done on an engine after bring the engine up to operating temperature. You may not be able to do that, so testing on a cold engine may be your only option. You are looking for very low compression on one or more cylinders.

Your description of symptoms sounds to me as though the cylinder compression seals may be leaking, which allows the in-cylinder fuel/air pressure to leak into the cooling system. If that is the case, the engine needs to be removed and the reason for the leaking needs to be repaired. Common causes include an improperly-machined cylinder head surface or cylinder surface, improper torqueing of head nuts, and broken or loose cylinder head studs.

The failure of your rad fan to come on at the lowest speed indicates either that the switch in the rad that operated this system has failed or the resister that controls the lowest rad fan speed has failed.

Simply put, any time you invest $4,500 in a rebuilt engine, it is appropriate to invest another $500 to $700 in the cooling system to simply replace these common trouble items (keeping the old, still-working ones as emergency spares):

1. radiator;
2. radiator fan switch;
3. pressure tank and pressure cap;
4. the two hoses connecting the plastic pipes to the radiator;
5. the hoses connecting to the water pump;
6. the hoses connecting to the oil cooler (2.1 only);
7. the heater hoses connecting to the rear heater core;
8. the thermostat (test it in boiling water before installing).

The above is the minimum. It is a good idea to replace the remaining hoses also, but the above are the most susceptible to damage caused by heat and age. If testing reveals that the low-speed fan does not come on as per design, then replace the rad fan resistor as well.

I still find it puzzling that even sellers like GoWesty do not emphasize the importance of replacing all the cooling system components that could fail. The newest Vanagon is now 24 years old!!

I hope this helps get you started on the road back to the road.
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T3 Pilot
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=974
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Abelabelabel
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to both of you.
Shop is going to diagnose now.

T3 Pilot - Hoses were okay, pressure tested van daily, and on departure made sure there were no evidence of leaks under 20PSI. I've been carrying tons of coolant with me, and monitoring levels, and constantly pressure testing to make sure Air wasn't the culprit. Failure of motor happened 5 miles from cabin.

Howesight - Thank you for the insight. This will be very helpful when I touch base with the shop that did the rebuild again. And it's helping me wrap my head around what the heck is actually been happening.

Hoses - At time of van purchase in February, rear heater was deleted, and major hoses were all replaced with stainless steel, and other hoses were replaced/updated as well. This was done by another shop as part of the new car make over.
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Abelabelabel
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A second trip to Big Bear. A new thermostat and a replaced fuel filter later and the van is parked back in front of the house.

I'm ditching the old mechanics. Big bear mechanics and I agreed too much easy stuff to catch and then not do. Thermostat was clearly failing since the coolant burp. A proper bleed or test drive to make sure thermostat was opening would have revealed this pretty quickly. (Unless I'm wrong)
The drive back was harrowing. Despite new fuel filter still took several minutes to feel like van was running clean. Am afraid to ask why. But once I was running I was running good. Temp stayed far below the levels it was before and stage two fan kicked in only once on the 91 even with blowing AC.

Next up:

New radiator
New resistor for radiator fan.
Making sure my temp sensors and mass AFM are doin' their things right.
Rewiring the engine compartment. It's time to bust out the soldering iron and read some electrical diagrams!
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Bills85Westy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you got out of this without a major engine failure. That's great!
I've had exactly the same experience with mechanics and feeling like they missed the obvious, but it seems like par for the course.

I've ended up learning the particulars of my vehicles just to "know" when i'm getting good advice or not.

Good luck on working through your other issues and getting back to a place where you feel comfortable with the reliability of your van.

I'm sure it won't be long!
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Abelabelabel
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bills85Westy wrote:
Sounds like you got out of this without a major engine failure. That's great!
I've had exactly the same experience with mechanics and feeling like they missed the obvious, but it seems like par for the course.

I've ended up learning the particulars of my vehicles just to "know" when i'm getting good advice or not.

Good luck on working through your other issues and getting back to a place where you feel comfortable with the reliability of your van.

I'm sure it won't be long!



This is solid advice. And is exactly what's happening. It's great to have things confirmed with a pro, stuff I was beginning to suspect on our road trip and as I kept running out of things to "fix".

What an expensive learning curve. Oh well. It's all part of the fun. Once I get through this next round of fixes, I can start to focus on the little stuff, and then save up again to start doing the cosmetic stuff. Or, being a responsible adult. Laughing

Thanks for the comment.
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