Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
All the bolt on mods 1600 w/ butt dyno results
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Forum Index -> Performance - Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Brian_e
Samba Member


Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 174
Location: Rapid City, SD
Brian_e is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:15 pm    Post subject: All the bolt on mods 1600 w/ butt dyno results Reply with quote

Hello,
I just thought I would share my experience with others on here, as I know there are many looking to do the same things I have done. I will list the mods, how they fit, and what I thought using my highly calibrated butt dyno. I realize some won't agree with me, but this is what I found. I tried to replace broken/worn stock parts with performance parts.

I started with a bone stock, crappy running DP 1600. After a little tuning I found my 34-3 was toast. I did some research and talked to a few people who have run them, and I decided to throw a set of 40mm Kadrons on to replace the stock carb. I went with the kads because of the supposed ease of tuning, and the chokes. I live in S. Dakota, and I like to drive my bug all year round.

Kadron Install:
Perfect, no issues. Everything fit. I did take the tops off the carbs and blow them out before installing them. I followed every word on AJ's site, and they fired up and ran. Tuning the carbs is very easy. The only thing I don't like is the stock linkage makes it hard to get the carbs to balance. I will be upgrading it soon.

Kadron Performance:
Huge difference. I was going from a junk carb to these,so anything would be an improvement. The engine seems to wrap up higher, and has better off the line power. The mileage increased over the junk stock carb. I get a pretty consistent 29mpg if I drive it nice. Worst I have gotten was 19.

1 3/8 Hideout header.
I replaced my stock rusted out muffler with a Bugpack header.

Header Install:
Perfect, no issues. I did get in a hurry and not do as the directions said. They mention removing the black paint that comes on the parts and repainting them with high temp. I didn't cause I wanted to install it. Now I have a really crappy looking rusty header.

Header performance:
Little bit more power, way better sound, and NO exhaust leaks. Not too noisy. I think the muffler and the carbs together area a good pair.

Lightened Flywheel
I had a very leaky main seal, so while I had the flywheel off, I machined it down to right at 13lbs. and had it resurfaced and balanced.

Lightened Flywheel performance
Noticeable acceleration, and easier to drive around town. On my way home I have to stop at the top of a hill. Before the flywheel I would really have to rev it up and ride the clutch to get going. With the lighter flywheel the car starts moving much easier, and I don't have to ride the clutch nearly as much. The car does seem quicker.

1.4 ratio rockers
I bought a cheap empi 1.4 set just to try them out. They are crappy, sloppy, noisy, and cheap, but they made a big difference.

1.4 rocker install
I also used a set of empi chro-mo cut to length push rods. They went on pretty well until I started the car. When the car was running they were making a terrible racket. I figured it out that it was all of the slop between each arm. I machined the ends of the shafts, and rearranged the spacers to minimize the slop. The noise is pretty much gone.

1.4 rocker performance.
huge difference (remember, calibrated butt dyno). The car revs higher, pulls harder, and seems much faster. I don't know how well these work on a bone stock engine, but with the kads and the muffler, I am pretty impressed. I does suck to have to machine them to make them fit, but I got what I paid for, and I was expecting that.

Pertronix ignition
I added this because I had a couple of owner related point incidents.

Pertronix install
5 min, just like they say.

Pertronix performance.
Not much difference driving, but it did seem to idle a little smoother. Haven't had any more point related issues.

All in all I realize I have spent a bunch of $$ on a little engine and I could have just bought something bigger, but I was doing this in stages just like most of the normal Joe's on this site. Most people who ride in my bug are impressed with the power. I am as well. I know it is faster, it pulls hills better, and I am having a blast driving it.

The next step is the 2054 that is going together in the garage. I will get back to you with the butt dyno results from that one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
craigman
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 2134
Location: redding
craigman is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to see someone that did actually testing for themselfs instead of just listend to others b.s.
Way to go Brian! Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SGKent Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 20725
Location: Sacramento CA
SGKent is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
junk stock carb


Great thread but I might be less flamboyant with my words. Say "stock carb" or "worn out stock carb" but don't lay the blame on VW. If you do this then someone else will say I started with that junk old volkswagon and part by part I used Honda ones. When I was done it ran outstanding - darn old junk VW parts.... why didn't they put in a Honda VTEC engine to begin with....... or a Ferarri one.......

You upgraded from stock or replaced a worn out carb but don't insult your baby by calling her junky....

And repainting the exhaust can still be done. Get a can and do it. You'll feel better.

Know what I mean?
_________________
77 Bay (2008-)
71 Bay (1975-85)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vwracerdave
Samba Member


Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 9648
Location: OKLAHOMA
vwracerdave is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Butt dyno is absolutely meaningless. Anything you do to your engine will seem to make it run better if you believe it in your head.

Now go wash and wax your car. I promise it will run better.
_________________
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63

Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Matthew
Samba Member


Joined: January 29, 2004
Posts: 1381
Location: Fort Pierce, FL
Matthew is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
Butt dyno is absolutely meaningless. Anything you do to your engine will seem to make it run better if you believe it in your head.

Now go wash and wax your car. I promise it will run better.


I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I say just the opposite. Printed numbers on a piece of paper are meaningless. It comes down to how the car runs and drives and if you are happy with the performance level. Now to take it a step further, some before and after acceleration tests would have been helpful, but I do think driving impressions are meaningful.
_________________
1965 Beetle sedan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sbnova
Samba Member


Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 729
Location: Lakeland,FL
sbnova is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great job laying out the info.
_________________
Link to my build thread- Updated 6-6-07 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=210613
check my sites to see my work;
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/1564293 (bug)
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/448794 (Vette,Nova,Typhoon)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gonebuggy
Samba Member


Joined: June 23, 2005
Posts: 748
Location: Canada
gonebuggy is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
Butt dyno is absolutely meaningless. Anything you do to your engine will seem to make it run better if you believe it in your head.

Now go wash and wax your car. I promise it will run better.


Ignorant statement of the year award.... Rolling Eyes

Dave,
I know you're a smart guy. Yes a "butt dyno" is not ideal for tracking engine modifications (improvements or otherwise) But I would never say that it's "absolutely meaningless". Some shade tree mechanics don't care to have the dyno charts to prove it. Or need to extract maximum performance from their engine. At the end of the day, most of the cars around here never see the track or competition. It's just a matter of how much fun they have with them during the weekends after enjoying some tinkering.

I know I can notice a difference changing from 36 vents, to 34 on my IDFs. Or when my timing, or jetting is off. I know I'm not alone.

When the critic you're trying to please is your "butt" the only way to acheive that is to use a "butt dyno"!

Keep up the good work Brian_e,
it's good to see a guy marching to the beat of his own drum, and figuring stuff out for himself. But mostly, having FUN! Very Happy

Alex
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andk5591 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 11346
Location: State College, PA
andk5591 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did not HOT VW or VW Trends do essentially the same thing? Really thinking it was Hot VWs doing a series of "budget" bolt ons to a stock 1600 in a baja (thinking it there was a $500 limit) and pretty much came up with the same conclusions. Testing was done on the track. Like 0-60, 1/4 mile times etc. with remarkable results. Like shaving 10 sec off quarter mile times or something crazy like that. Most changes were substantial enough to measure on a butt dyno, I think.

The upgrades you have done are pretty much known improvements - I think Aircooled.net still has a similar tech article on his site. Both of my "modded" engines are done with a similar set up as yours, except one is a 1776 and the other is a 1914. Aint it great when you move forward each time LOL.

Nice work and I am sure you are smiling - you should be.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard project at wife's request and your gonna die when you see this one.
66 - not named future project (suby conversion?)
67 (?) Desert bug project..or maybe not
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
midtravelmidengine
Samba Member


Joined: August 06, 2009
Posts: 656
Location: Riverside, Ca
midtravelmidengine is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to make everyone happy you could pay $75 and get a chassis dyno. then we would know what you are putting down. (although some will just say that the dyno was off or something Rolling Eyes Laughing )
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andk5591 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 11346
Location: State College, PA
andk5591 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing that bites for most folks is the luxury of making changes at the dyno shop....runs into a bit of $$.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard project at wife's request and your gonna die when you see this one.
66 - not named future project (suby conversion?)
67 (?) Desert bug project..or maybe not
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bakertool13
Samba Member


Joined: September 17, 2009
Posts: 105

bakertool13 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

any idea how i can find that magazine issue? I would like to see the before and after numbers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
gonebuggy
Samba Member


Joined: June 23, 2005
Posts: 748
Location: Canada
gonebuggy is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't care how fast you think it is, I care how fast I think it is! Laughing

Alex
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andk5591 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 11346
Location: State College, PA
andk5591 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
any idea how i can find that magazine issue? I would like to see the before and after numbers.


If I have time, I'll dig through and see if I can find it. I was really surprised at how much of a differences the mods made. They did a step by step - header change, then carbs, then ratio rockers...... Now I want to reread it myself. Maybe later today LOL
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard project at wife's request and your gonna die when you see this one.
66 - not named future project (suby conversion?)
67 (?) Desert bug project..or maybe not
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
madmike
Samba Member


Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 2012
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
madmike is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have access to a Dyno up here in norther mi so the butt dyno works for me Laughing Hey brian. Instead of upgrading the linkage why not sell them and step up to 'Real' carbs like 40 IDF's the butt dyno will prove their twice the carb's then K-duds Cool Shocked Laughing
_________________
Local Car Clubs ,Oscoda County Cruisers,and www.thegoodvolks.com , Drag Only 2332 SandShark,Laser917 for a Daily Driver,65 Baja,68 VolksRod 1915 'Turbo' Coupe,and "I'm Diggin This" a 150" Dragster 2332 48IDA's, 70 MicroBus 40 IDf's,W110,ect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
[email protected]
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 9110
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
john@aircooled.net is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you don't need a dyno. These mods have been proven to work for 40 years.

http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/mods.htm

To optimize the jetting and timing you do, but the engine WILL make more power with them, even not optimized.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andk5591 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 11346
Location: State College, PA
andk5591 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a quick and dirty summary of the article I had mentioned. If you want all the detail, find it and read it.

Bolt on power tests Dec 06 Hot VWs
Stock 1600 with stinger exhaust and 009 dist, carb unknown. Looks like a 34PICT 3 or H30/31 but not sure. Car is a Baja, assuming oversized tires, etc, but I dont know. They used a data logger and multiple runs to generate their data.

Baseline acceleration from 2 to 55 MPH 30.8 sec
Added a pair of Kads 25.8 sec
Added "turbo" muffler, lost .473 sec
Added trimill header and muffler 24.614 sec
Added 1.25 ratio rockers 18.6 sec

Looks about right to me - increase carb and exhaust and you had to get the heads to cooperate by flowing more.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard project at wife's request and your gonna die when you see this one.
66 - not named future project (suby conversion?)
67 (?) Desert bug project..or maybe not
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Hotrodvw
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2004
Posts: 6320
Location: Orygun
Hotrodvw is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
Butt dyno is absolutely meaningless. Anything you do to your engine will seem to make it run better if you believe it in your head.

Now go wash and wax your car. I promise it will run better.



Wow.........aren't you the optimist. NOT
I've posted many times about my Dells on my 1641 giving me a dyno backed 30%gain at the wheels......which beleive it or not I could feel at the seat of the pants. The dyno just gave me a number. If I had taken it to the track, I would just get a different set of numbers. Is it so hard to give the guy kudos for doing this little experiment and having great results that are reliable and make him happy????? Rolling Eyes

Nice work Brian............It's fun to put the work in to it and have positive results!!!!!
_________________
'67 Sunroof
Eric

78x94 with IDA's....oober fun

Horsepower is an addiction........Addictions cost
lots of money!

Hose & Fittings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
didget69
Samba Member


Joined: July 22, 2004
Posts: 3452
Location: Capital, North Carolina
didget69 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrome valve covers will give you another 5hp, minimum... Laughing

bnc
_________________
I don't speak fluent IDIOT, but if you'll type/ talk slower and louder, I'll try to understand you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
69 Jim
Samba Member


Joined: September 27, 2004
Posts: 6689
Location: Chickengeorge's Neighbor
69 Jim is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andk5591 wrote:
Here is a quick and dirty summary of the article I had mentioned. If you want all the detail, find it and read it.

Bolt on power tests Dec 06 Hot VWs
Stock 1600 with stinger exhaust and 009 dist, carb unknown. Looks like a 34PICT 3 or H30/31 but not sure. Car is a Baja, assuming oversized tires, etc, but I dont know. They used a data logger and multiple runs to generate their data.

Baseline acceleration from 2 to 55 MPH 30.8 sec
Added a pair of Kads 25.8 sec
Added "turbo" muffler, lost .473 sec
Added trimill header and muffler 24.614 sec
Added 1.25 ratio rockers 18.6 sec

Looks about right to me - increase carb and exhaust and you had to get the heads to cooperate by flowing more.


1.25 rockers reduced the time by 6 seconds?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
wardvwracer
Samba Member


Joined: July 19, 2002
Posts: 430
Location: Packer Country, WI
wardvwracer is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was cool - I've touted these suggestions for years. I would only add that there's a couple of low-buck additions that I'd suggest and neither require that you tear into the engine.

First, I'd suggest tossing on a set of HD Single Valve springs. When you start enjoying the increase in power you're bound to rev it higher than the stock worn out springs will be able to handle.

New plug wires and plugs. This will allow the benefits of the pertronix upgrade to be maximized.

Wink
_________________
David Ward
1962 Beetle
1963 Single Cab
Cornpanzers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance - Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2014, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB