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Car hesitates when I step on the gas pedal
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keifernet
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO forget the retard and run the distributor as an SVDA.

Hook the advance hose to the left hand port on the carb. Block off all other ports not used and the one on the manifold neck.

Set timing to 7.5 BTDC ( sounds like that is the mark you have to the right of the dimple on your pulley)

All that info was in the timing mark thread Randy just linked you to earlier.
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ctracing04
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

k thanks so much for the help. I'll do that today.
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ctracing04
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

K, I just got done doing that and the car was worse. I didn't get to drive it as it would stumble when I would rev it. I then saw white smoke keep coming out when reving it. I set everything back to how it was and readjusted the timing and the car was fine i could actually drive it but it would still hesitate.

Could this be because the distributor is dvad and i set it like a svad?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you re tune the carb after changing the timing settings?

People run the DVDA as an SVDA a lot so I don't see that being the problem. You have something else going on.
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ctracing04
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didnt' retune the carb.
I set the tach was around 900-1000 rpms and when i originally put the timing gun there It was already timed at the v mark. After I did all of what you said, then I noticed the timing was off, so what I did was adjust the timing to where the V was lined up on the middle of the case. Engine was idling at about the same range when I did that.

It would idle fine, but when I would rev it, it would hesitate a lot like if it was missing. The first couple times I reved it, it was reving fine so I thought i was good and decided to rev it a 3rd and 4th time, but it started missing a lot. Timing stayed on the same spot.


When I set everything back to how it was. My engine revd fine like if nothing happend, but once I drive it thats when the engine misses if i suddenly step on it.
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keifernet
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ctracing04 wrote:
I didnt' retune the carb.
I set the tach was around 900-1000 rpms and when i originally put the timing gun there It was already timed at the v mark. After I did all of what you said, then I noticed the timing was off, so what I did was adjust the timing to where the V was lined up on the middle of the case. Engine was idling at about the same range when I did that.

It would idle fine, but when I would rev it, it would hesitate a lot like if it was missing. The first couple times I reved it, it was reving fine so I thought i was good and decided to rev it a 3rd and 4th time, but it started missing a lot. Timing stayed on the same spot.


When I set everything back to how it was. My engine revd fine like if nothing happend, but once I drive it thats when the engine misses if i suddenly step on it.



Are you saying the timing mark did not move when you revved it up?

And your sure you have the correct vac hose off the cannister connected to the port on the LH side of the carb?

Changes to the distributor and timing usually result in you also needing to re adjust/tune the carb too. Both effect the other when making changes.
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ctracing04
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I capped the vacuum canisrt from the flat side, capped the intake port and the timing did change. I moved the dizzy to where I aligned the v mark back over to the middle of the case as it did move. I watched RPMS and kept it at 900 RPM to make sure it would idle good. Since it idle good I didn't bother to change the carb.

By tune do you mean adjust idle speed or redo the volume mixture all together even though it idles fine??

Would this cause it to idle fine but not rev properly if Carb is not tuned ?
Thanks again for all you patience and support.
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keifernet
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ctracing04 wrote:
I capped the vacuum canisrt from the flat side, capped the intake port and the timing did change. I moved the dizzy to where I aligned the v mark back over to the middle of the case as it did move. I watched RPMS and kept it at 900 RPM to make sure it would idle good. Since it idle good I didn't bother to change the carb.

By tune do you mean adjust idle speed or redo the volume mixture all together even though it idles fine??

Would this cause it to idle fine but not rev properly if Carb is not tuned ?
Thanks again for all you patience and support.


You should leave that port for the retard on the vac cannister open not blocked off.


But did the timing move when you revved the engine? As in is it advancing properly when you rev the engine from idle ( again I refer you to all the posts in the timing thread linked to earlier)

If it's not advancing your going to have the hesitation and poor running. It could be the vacuum can or stuck/sticking plate inside the distributor or the advance mechaninsm down under the plates can be sticky or frozen. All kinds of things can be your problem. Just need to figure out one thing at a time.

Yes you should re adjust the mixture screws on the carb again after it's warmed up from the changes.
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ctracing04
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

k I'll try it again. the timing mark did move when I revved it.
If i would let it idle the v mark was aligned over to the middle of the case and when I would rev it , it would move.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can't get it after all this I am thinking that particular Bocar carb most likely is troubles. As I said many posts ago I have never been able to get that "style" of them to fucntion well.
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ctracing04
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This failed too. i readjusted the carb to get the idle up so it wouldn't stall and it was idling fine as soon as I would rev it it would start missing again.

I tried tuning it per the DVAD to 5 degrees, after svad mode failed, same thing readjusted carb and same thing happend it started missing a little over 1000rpm when reving it.

I set back to original config, how i got the car back and it would be fine idling and I reved it it seemed fine then sometimes would hesitate when I just pressed the throttle hard just like initial problem. Sad.

1 note, When adjusting the bypass screw on the carb I had to really turn it in order for me to notice any change in engine speed.
For example right now it is set straight up(virtical) and when I was timing to 5 degrees with vacuum lines there I had to almost move it half a turn in order for it to pickup. Same thing when Adjusting for 7.5 degree svad mode.

Perhaps its the carb, what do you guys think? The only way i can get it to work is by me leaving it at 7.5 degrees and leaving both lines conneced, one on the side of the carb and the other on the intake port. Confused

On the freeway i can cruise just fine but it if i want to step on it hmm mightess well just stay on the slow lane till it slowly picks up. hehe
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ctracing04 wrote:
This failed too. i readjusted the carb to get the idle up so it wouldn't stall and it was idling fine as soon as I would rev it it would start missing again.

I tried tuning it per the DVAD to 5 degrees, after svad mode failed, same thing readjusted carb and same thing happend it started missing a little over 1000rpm when reving it.

I set back to original config, how i got the car back and it would be fine idling and I reved it it seemed fine then sometimes would hesitate when I just pressed the throttle hard just like initial problem. Sad.

1 note, When adjusting the bypass screw on the carb I had to really turn it in order for me to notice any change in engine speed.
For example right now it is set straight up(virtical) and when I was timing to 5 degrees with vacuum lines there I had to almost move it half a turn in order for it to pickup. Same thing when Adjusting for 7.5 degree svad mode.

Perhaps its the carb, what do you guys think? The only way i can get it to work is by me leaving it at 7.5 degrees and leaving both lines conneced, one on the side of the carb and the other on the intake port. Confused

On the freeway i can cruise just fine but it if i want to step on it hmm mightess well just stay on the slow lane till it slowly picks up. hehe


I stated right off my experience with *that particular style Bocar 34 pict 3. Wink

But you had ( have other issues) things the way your distributor vac hoses were hooked up so it made sense to try and rectify that first and see if it helped.

IMHO you have could have multiple issues.

And having to turn the big brass screw ( is that the one your referring too?) a half a turn is no big deal. The big brass screw can end up being anywhere from around 1 turn to 4 turns out for any given engine set up. The "2 1/2" turns on the screws stated in the tuning/set up procedures are just base line to start from, not where it's going to for sure run best.

Do you have any friends with VW's who you can swap out the carb with another known good one for a test session?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have the same symptom, with a totally different set up. but then, my bus needs work. i've had this quirk before, some years back, and don't quite remember exactly what it turned out to be, i just know eventually, with enough persistent tuning, it did get fixed
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes this was the big brass screw. I figured if I turned it a little I should see the RPMS rise or drop a bit, but nothing happend when I turned it up that much.

I dont have any friends with any carbs to test with Sad.
Just for the record, how much do you sell your rebuilt ones for?

Here is something that might help out.
While getting home from work after about a 15-20min drive, the car worked fine for the first 3 gears. It wasn't missing at all and I could step on the gas and it would pick right up. I thought what the the heck happend. I always let it idle for like 5 minute before leaving the parking lot.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keifernet wrote:

I stated right off my experience with *that particular style Bocar 34 pict 3. Wink

But you had ( have other issues) things the way your distributor vac hoses were hooked up so it made sense to try and rectify that first and see if it helped.

IMHO you have could have multiple issues.

And having to turn the big brass screw ( is that the one your referring too?) a half a turn is no big deal. The big brass screw can end up being anywhere from around 1 turn to 4 turns out for any given engine set up. The "2 1/2" turns on the screws stated in the tuning/set up procedures are just base line to start from, not where it's going to for sure run best.

Do you have any friends with VW's who you can swap out the carb with another known good one for a test session?


I concur. I believe he has issues with both the carburetor (throttle shaft bushings for one thing) and the distributor's vacuum canister. Having the vacuum lines connected correctly, and then the car runs like crap is a clue. having them connected wrong, and the car runs better is an even bigger one. If the diaphragm inside the vacuum canister is preforated, like a pinhole or two, it's gonna take a stronger vacuum to move the diaphragm in the vacuum canister, which the connection to the intake manifold below the carburetor would provide, BUT, the correct vacuum connection location on the left of the carburetor would not. If the vacuum canister were intact and working as it should, the vacuum signal from the left side of the carburetor would be the proper place for the vacuum line to go. It should be the only place, period.

Incidently, if no one has mentioned it, the vacuum port on the manifold goes to the stock air cleaner, not the distributor, or to the carburetor.

I suspect if he's able to diagnose with a known good carburetor and distributor, even a 009, he'll be able to, by process of elimination, figure out what is needed.
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Last edited by Kelley on Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awesome infor.
Another piece that might help us all. When I suck on the advance side i have to really suck in, for it to move, but it does hold vacuum. Should this move with minimal effort?
I know the retard side did.

If I find an 009 or another dizzy can I just swap the dizzy or will i also need the dizzy gear that goes in the engine?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ctracing04 wrote:
Should this move with minimal effort?
I know the retard side did.


Yes.

ctracing04 wrote:
If I find an 009 or another dizzy can I just swap the dizzy or will i also need the dizzy gear that goes in the engine?


Yes, you can just swap the distributor. But, you will have to readjust timing when you do this. Especially when you swap from a vacuum or vacuum/retard distributor (SVDA - 034 035 036, DVDA - 049) to a mechanical advance distributor, like a 009, 010, or 019. Have your timing light ready.

Don't forget, you may also have problems with your carburetor at the same time. You'll probably have to make minor adjustments to both at the same time. Both are related to the problems you're having, IMHO. Search the posts by 'keifernet' concerning 34/3 carburetor tuning. There will be links in those threads that will guide you. Whatever distributor you end up using, ask about how you should time the engine to it, and someone will post a link or info on how to set timing using the distributor you've chosen. Better post a pic of your setup as well, ALL available info helps us help you.

I want to state also that Randy and Keith have already posted what I just posted above, earlier in this thread.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, many of your questions and issues can be resolved here as well, it's our Index of 'Sticky's', articles that bear saving for future reference - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=183060


But don't let that stop you from asking questions, Cool
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I took the engine to a guy whos worked of vdubs for 20 years. He works from home now. While driving it seemed like it was running out of gas so I filled the tank and found out it wasn't empty.
Any whoo, i noticed white smoke would come out of the right exhaust port. Neutral

The guy adjusted the valves with the engine cold, and we found out the only the hot side valves were closed on the two rear cylinders, He then checked the carb and cleaned it and showed me how to do it on my own. To our surprise the accelorator pump, had the little gasket with the stick coming out of it filed down. for somereason it would work fine. Sad.

He said previous owners tried to repair it and did a mikey mouse. so we got the carb setup and lubed again. We then readjusted the points on the dizzy, timed the carb.

I started the engine and were checking settings while doing that the engine just didn't want to get in tune and he heard a clacking noise inside. I told him i heard that but thought it was the fan. He checked and it wasn't its internal. Sad

I told him the engine had sounded like that for a while now. he said it could be something simple and will take the engine down on sat and take it apart.

He was very knowlegable and showed me how to do maint..etc. he also started 1 of his 3 beetles out there to show me how to fine out the correct way a vw engine would sound. Aside from the intermittent clacking, Let me just say his engines sounded perfect and my never sounded that way. Neutral.

He will show me the engine on sunday when i get off of work and tell me what to buy. Nice older guy really.
He said the engine was on its last leg. It kept shaking around and squeeking too. He said that isn't normal.

I'll keep you guys updated.

P.s. He also said I could run the engine like that but then it would blow up eventually and if we brought it down we can still repair whatever is broken, check clearence and whatever else it needs.
Oh and that little pump thing in the back of the carb was used for smog and said I didn't need it and the engine would run fine if i just disconnected it and plugged the port.
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