Driver side upper engine mounting bolt

[dopedemon69]

Haha I love that movie. I'm going to go to harbor freight I know they have hellacoils. It's always I new lesson with this car most of them pricey thank you for your help Tim

[motoguzzi13]

[madmike]

way to go 'Michigander'
stock Nazi's are gonna frown
Welkome and check out www.thegoodvolks.com
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works"

[Zundfolge1432]

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[Zundfolge1432]

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[Zundfolge1432]

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[Zundfolge1432]

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[Zundfolge1432]

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[Zundfolge1432]

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[Cusser]

Exactly as above.

Actually, I've R&R'd an engine that had a nut at that location with a doghouse cooler/shroud, and was pretty straightforward. And when that press-insert is there, a 17mm socket and some long extensions from underneath made this simple too.

No, I would NOT run with just 3 connected, just like I would not run with just 3 lug bolts !
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[Zundfolge1432]

cleaned up to avoid confusion and not germain to original question.

[Raymond73]

Okay, just toying with an idea here.

I'm upgrading to a dog house fan shroud and the upper left engine bolt is on my list of things to tackle. I haven't ruled out the press-in nut as that seems the most secure method, but I'm worried about messing that up if not aligned correctly with my hand drill.

I am not entertaining the option of running only three bolts, as many have pointed out, it was designed for four.

This made me think that most of the forces being applied are torsional along the middle of the transmission and engine. If this is true, a stud from either the bell housing or the engine would limit any travel in either a clock-wise or counter clock-wise direction. I'm thinking that possibly using three bolts and one stud would be sufficient.

Since I don't think I can weld onto either material, would something like a quick release pin of sufficient length, diameter, and shear strength be a suitable replacement?

I found what I think is something that might be up to the task. I would appreciate your feedback and thoughts.

https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0958165

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'70 Auto Stick Beetle
113 905 205AD
30 PICT-3

[Cusser]

I say: get the correct captive nut insert, just install it, should be straightforward.

Or just use pre-1971 bolt and nut, and install the two little doghouse tins after the engine has been installed. I've done that, and it WAS straightforward.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[airschooled]

[Raymond73]

[Raymond73]

[Cusser]

[Raymond73]

[Raymond73]

An update to my thought experiment.

One thing I didn't consider in the press-in insert/pin is how soft the case material actually is. I'm in the process of installing the doghouse oil cooler after much delay (translation:laziness). Since the studs for my offset cooler are slightly larger than the non-offset type, drilling was required. Completely do-able, which gives me more to ponder.

Sure what follows is not the scientific method, but I'm cool with that considering my limited resources. The pin, even with a close fit, is still much harder than the surrounding material. Without sufficient clamping force it's free to move and there's a definite possibility of enlarging the hole /cracking the flange after enough time. How much time it would take, I'm not sure. It might take days to decades depending on factors such as engine tune, driving style, etc.

Thinking back to my original..., well, thought, is a quick release pin and three bolts likely to cause more damage than just running with three bolts or are they equally bad, but just in different ways? Even with the softness of the material I still end up trying to think in percentages of effectiveness. If each of the four bolts provide equal clamping force and torsional resistance each bolt position is required to contribute a minimum of 25% of the load to max out at shared 100%. Dividing that requirement for 25% in half for each bolt hole position (12.5% each for clamping and torsional) that would mean that 3 bolts is 75% effective compared to 4 unmolested bolts (100%), and 3 bolts+example quick-release pin is 87.5% (i.e quick release pin lacks the clamping %).

Another thought is how much drilling and pressing damage the surrounding flange? Probably very little if done correctly. Still, to be fair, maybe half a percentage can be deducted compared to the original 100%. So, as a guesstimate for 4 bolts w/one press-in insert might be 99.5%.

To summarize assuming proper torque, no bolt/nut metal fatigue, crossed threads, etc:

75% for three bolts
87.5% for three bolts and example quick-release pin
99.5% for four bolts using press-in nut
100% for the original four bolts

If my crude thought experiment can be taken with a grain of salt, there are two distinct winners of the four options. Additionally, factoring in the theoretical damage the quick-release pin might cause, I'm comfortable in thinking that it would degrade in effectiveness over time. Eventually it would reduce from 87.5% down to 75% to equal only having three bolts.

One clear unknown to me is at what percentage (under 100%) does it fail to provide sufficient clamping force /torsional resistance to keep the engine and transmission happy? If it's 90% then it's clearly a bad idea to choose the first two options. If it's 80% then the third option is adequate, but probably not sustainable over time. If it's 70% then all options are viable.

However, considering that equal distribution is better than not, maybe the first option really isn't 75% effective after all. It's possibly less so I'm surmising that 75-80% is the minimum adequate clamping/torsional effectiveness required to stay operating. My rudimentary thinking is that the engineers chose 4 bolt equal distribution rather than 3, 5, or 6 for a reason. Losing a single bolt in the 3-configuration would result in 66% effectiveness, in the current 4-configuration 75%, in the 5-configuration it's 80%, and in the 6 configuration it's 83%. Overcompensating as the numbers increase. My 75-80% is based purely on economy as the 3-bolt option would likely be woefully inadequate during a failure. the 5 and more bolt options provide way more security, (most likely unnecessary considering the humble nature of the Beetle) but requiring more engineering and parts.

All that aside I realize that, yes there are four bolts and they are clearly better. If there were three bolts and a stud/hole then maybe the quick release pin given as an example would have more merit. For a theoretical example, drilling a broken stud and inserting a pin in its place.

Disclaimer: If you read this far, but missed my initial post in this thread, I'm neither championing the idea of running three bolts alone or relying on the pin. However, I still think that if the need arose, the quick release pin still seems to be adequate as a temporary measure to get you home.

If I missed something in my reasoning please don't hesitate to contribute.
_________________
'70 Auto Stick Beetle
113 905 205AD
30 PICT-3

[Cusser]

If I understand your post, you're reluctant to use a long bolt and the press-in threaded insert for the left upper mount.

Guess what?? You can use a regular bolt and nut there, and then just install the two small doghouse tins after that. I've done that on someone else's engine, not tough.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297