Kids riding in busses

[llamas1]

I have a little girl who does alot of traveling in my bus with me.

I prefer her strapped in the jump seat or even better the center of the back seat. I feel that she's more protected there.


Any thoughts or comments?

[jeremysmithatshawdotca]

How big? Technically, if she's in a car seat still, facing backwards in the jumpseat is probably the best spot. I have 3 kids now, and we have our 3 yr old in a car seat on the pass. side of the back seat, mom in the middle, and baby in a carrier/car seat on the other side, our 6 yr old gets to ride up front, on a booster seat, and I drive. This is in a 74 westy with a full width z bed, no jump seats. We want to get an 85-90 Wolfsburg or Carat Vanagon as well, with the two jumpseats that face backwards. Just missed out on one here a while back when we went camping! Jeremy

[llamas1]

She's 9, too big for a booster seat.

[jeremysmithatshawdotca]

Gotcha, my six year old is a scrwny little guy, he may still be in a booster seat when he goes for his driver's test! I'd say the jumpseat still, but it ought to have a head rest for her to be the safest. If there isn't one, you might want to get one, or swap the seat out for one that does have one (even, dare I say, from another kind of vehicle if you must!). It can always be switched back later, and my kid's safety comes before a purist's vision of a vw for me! Jeremy

[OrangeWesty'73]

I have my two and five year old girls in the back seat and they use car seats, I'm still able to convince the 5 yr old to use the straps on the car seat and I use the belt from the bus to hold the car seat in. By next summer I'll need to change this. I think a lap and shoulder belt could be made to work in the rear facing jumpseat. As far as the rear seat goes, I was wondering if anyone has put any type of harness or lap/shoulder belt in the back (at least on the side w/ no cabinet). I don't feel good just putting a lap belt on them anymore, seems the shoulder restraint is equally important. Also, I believe a recent law was passed that no children can ride in the front seat. At least in Illinois anyway.

By the way, this is only my second post, although I visit daily. I like seeing that there are other people with kids, making this work. This site and all the people on it are loads of useful info. thanks
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'73 Westy

[llamas1]

I believe that the shoulder harness is most important in the front seats to
keep the upper body from smashing into the dash/windshield. It seems like in the back seat where theres nothing to hit that the belt by itself is sufficient.

The problem with shoulder harness' are that on most children they ride
too close to the neck area.

[pawesty]

i strap my daughters rear facing car seat in the scenter of the z bed. in my transporter i plan on placing the car seat in the center row of seats. the lap belts seem to snug the car seat in well. though i'm thinking of replacing the old vw belts with some sort of retractables.
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"Go smell the wind, go far. Hear the marvelous strange chime of midnight" Kerouac

79 westy
78 westy

purveyor of refurbed westies and parts!!! inquire within!

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[Amskeptic]

This is such a touchy subject, because safety is difficult to find in a bus. For the past twenty years, I have had to engage my front seat passengers in Philosophy of Death 101 when riding in the Bus. I categorically refuse to belt anyone in the front of a VW Bus. My VW wrecking yard guy out in California showed me his bus after a 15 mph hit on the freeway, wasn't paying attention, and he walked with a limp. Both femurs broken, right kneecap shattered, and the spot welds in the front had shredded off the windshield channel and the right side door frame. The heater tube tore off and was sticking at the center aisle like a dagger.
The dashboard came in so fast that he was appalled. His fatal flaw was to not get off the brakes, who would have the presence of mind to do so? but the result was that his bus was pitched low in the front due to the braking and only the soft sheetmetal hit the car in front of him. He was belted in securely and told me he had nowhere to squirm.
A seatbelt in the front is useful if you can promise yourself that you are alert enough to find Any Way But Head-On to crash. These cars account very well for themselves in rollovers and glancing side hits, a seatbelt would be good for a rollover. But I cannot promise myself that a freeway multi-car pile up would give me enough room to find Any Way But Head-On. So I choose to risk ejection in an unexpected rollover so I can be free enough to throw myself out of the driver's seat if I see a head-on coming. This is not as outlandish as it seems. The late great racing driver, Masten Gregory made bail-outs the highest art form, where he would hit a berm or a tree or another car and sail sixty to a hundred feet away just at impact when his car would be squashed beyond recognition. Spectators and photo-journalists would see him gather himself as his car looped around or skidded past recovery. I have a script that says if I ever see a huge surprise in the windshield, open the door and bail: nothing would be as bad as feeling the entire front end of the car crush your legs into the wheel arches and having the steering wheel/dashboard punch you past the partition behind the front seats. I would rather break every bone from a beach ball bounce down the road, if I cleared the other vehicle.
Most of my front seat passengers have opted for a clear shot out the nice big baywindow windshield. I saw a green/white 1965 VW Bus get creamed in a head-on with a '67 Cadillac in my hometown in 1967 on Interstate 84 when it was single lane opposing traffic. The driver of the VW could not get clear of the steering wheel, and it was a closed casket funeral. The driver of the Cadillac was killed by his steering wheel intrusion. The passenger in the VW jettisoned out the windshield and landed several car lengths away from the Cadillac, took a bad hit on the guardrail which made for a three week hospital stay, but he was fully able to walk and remember his name. That '65 was mashed in to the side doors on the right side. It was utterly horrifying.
Regarding your children, I recommend against aftermarket shoulder belts and most of the domestic shoulder belts as well. A nine year old could get her carotid arteries crushed by a shoulder belt that rode too close to her neck. There is also a twist with a diagonal shoulder belt that snaps young collar bones. A shoulder belt can also contribute to soft abdomenal injuries as her torso is unable to pivot around her pelvis held by the lap belt. In that instance, her body can porpoise under the lap portion of the belt just enough to rupture internal organs. Any post '67 Bus will take care of upper body impact as gently as could be hoped-for against the center seat back, and no such impact will occur in the center seating positions ( unless you are in the mother-of-all-head-ons), but that pivoting forward will help the belt stay around the hip/pelvis bones.
I do not know what the actual accident/fatality rates were for the VW Bus, from what I have heard from my old acquaintance at Consumer Reports, these cars were in fewer-than-expected accidents for the miles driven, but the front-end impact fatality rates for the drivers were pretty horrible. He was the lucky driver to keep a bus for the long-term reliability test, a job he took with great reluctance.
I have not so much as backed into a trash can with my Bus. Every time I drive that car, I work myself up into a fresh paranoia as I wash the windshield and note anew that my knee can cave in the front sheetmetal.
I won't even bother to tell you about the decades of free-range children that have played on the floor of my Bus on long trips, played Monopoly over the engine, slept in the aisle between the front seats, and hung out the passenger window yelling compliments to startled motorists driving nasty looking rust-buckets. There is no excuse.
Colin

[Thor]

Front harnesses a must. I have had the unfortunate experience of a roll over. I have posted this story before. Let me see if I can find it and cut and paste it here. Hummmmmmm


Here we go,

It was after the Superbowl in 1995 (remember Superbowls are in the winter up North). I was driving home on the interstate 15 in Idaho from a late movie (in a 1978 Westy), It was probably 11:30 at night, On the way to the show it was raining. When we came out of the show it was snowing. The Interstate was basically frozen. I had 4 passengers, two on the bench one on a crate in the back (no jumpseat), one in the passenger seat. The upper bed was missing, I had some roughed in sheets of plywood up top to finish a bed sometime. There was no light in the back, on the cross bar that raises the roof I hung a candle lantern. I had a coleman propane stove that was installed in the spare tire storage section of the cabinet. Well that stove was running and keeping us warm. I also lived in the ride so I had everything in there. Including a small axe, coleman fuel, and firewood in a box, blankets etc.......

With the wind and snow I was driving at 25 mph. Feeling pretty good. I could see a semi hauling ass in my mirror, as the semi passed me we felt a big swell of wind shake the bus, and at the same time I tried to speed up thinking I must be going to slow. As I hit the gas, the semi passed and I began to fishtail the bus at 30 mph. I let go of the gas and was trying to steer into a powerslide, I turned the bus side ways twice, staring out the drivers side window and passenger side window as I spun the steering wheel around. I could not gain control, Finally I swung one more time and I thought I had it straighted out. As I came straight I tried to give it a little gas to go straight. This flipped me around to a 180*, I was now facing oncoming traffic while sliding down the interstate backwards. I slide from the right lane to the left lane. Hit the median (barrow pit). Which was sand and dirt. This caused us to do a barrel roll 1 1/2 times in the air then land, on the passenger side. Remember Westy? I landed on the propane tank nozzles. Windshield poped out, three passengers ran out of the windshield. I was hanging by my seat belt. (only one with one on.) I was able to get unbuckled and climbed out. I was missing one friend. It was pitch dark and snowing still. I went back in and all I could smell was fuel. Car was still running, I was able to turn it off, then climb into the bus farther and turn off the propane heater. My friend was thrown against the jalousie windows and chipped his elbow. He was fine just hurt. I found a blanket on the floor it was wet? Could not figure out why, I lifted it up and my axe had punctured my coleman fuel and soaked my blanket, but the blanket was wrapped around my candle lantern, and the lantern was still lit. I was able to blow out the candle and crawl back out.

To make it worse we had alcohol, not drinking, in the back. All glass bottles broke. We smelled like drunks. The state cops were cool with it. NO tests or anything.

I have a polaroid of the wrecked bus on a trailer, maybe I can scan it and post.
That is my story.

I posted on this story on this link, There are other scarry stories here, not all seat belt related.

Because of the seatbelt, I was not thrown. I strongly support wearing mine. As mentioned I would avoid at all costs the head on collision.
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1979 Bay & 1978 II Westy Current Owner, 1963 Beetle & 1972 Beetle & 1976 SquareBack (Sold) & 1976 Westy (Wrecked) & 1978 Bay (Sold to pay for Wedding)

[Randy in Maine]

Amskeptic,

An intersting viewpoint and the story was also nice, but you are wrong.

You (and your passengers) and safer being belted into your seat, than being a projectile during a crash.

It is also the law in most states for the reason that it actually saves lives. Most of the laws we pass really can't say that they save lives, but this one does. Ask any cop or doctor and they will agree.

Sincerely,
Randy

[79SuperVert]

I don't have a bus but I agree re: seatbelts. Everybody can come up with a story about somebody who was thrown clear and lived. But the numbers are there for everyone to see who bothers to do the research: people who get ejected are much more likely to die than people who stay belted in the car. There's simply no argument, if you look for the data instead of for the anecdotes.

[pawesty]

more on the seat belt issue. i work full time as a paramedic, been to many accident scenes. seen many people both belted and unbelted. i don't even leave the driveway without buckling up. i can say from personal recollection. i haven't seen many people who were ejected from any vehicle fair very well.
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"Go smell the wind, go far. Hear the marvelous strange chime of midnight" Kerouac

79 westy
78 westy

purveyor of refurbed westies and parts!!! inquire within!

.

[Amskeptic]

There is no doubt that the middle and rear seat passengers are safer with belts. I think the VW Bus has a particularly safe cabin for them. But the front is a different story, and I'll take the risk of ejection any day. If I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that a head on would be avoidable 100% of the time, then yes, I would prefer belts for the front sacrifice victims for side/rollover protection.
Colin
( remember, there is NO worse vehicle for front end collisions)

[Amskeptic]

[llamas1]

I have read this thing top to bottom and find myself very concerned.

I agree with most of you that being seat belted in is the best. However I also believe that I would rather be in any other vehicle than a bus and get into a head on collision.

I've been in several accidents when I was younger and know how quickly
they happen. You don't have any time to react in a pre-planned manor. Like amskeptic said "who would have the presence of mind to do so?".

I purchased this bus so my daughter and I could go camping together.
After first reading this forum I told myself that I would never let her ride
in front. Now I'm thinking about a change of vehicle.

Maybe somebody will trade me a Bug for it.

[Randy in Maine]

Amskeptic,

For a guy who would fret all night long about his exhaust valves on #3 being adjusted 0.001 to tight, his timing off more than 1 degree, or the wheel lugs over torqued, I am failing to see your logic here.

You are trying to draw to an inside straight.

There is no percentage in trying to do that.

You are more likely to be toast in ANY accident if you are not belted in at all times. Most accidents are not head ons, they are of the "other" category.

How about this?

1) Always drive with your headlights on.
2) Always stay at LEAST 2 seconds behind the car in front of you. I like 3 myself in the bus becasue it is really hard to get front panel stuff anymore.
3) Always wear good 3 point belts. Not that cheap crap that doesn't fit and came in the bus, nice new modern retractable belts. They pay for themselves the first time you use them.
4) Oh yeah, don't drive any faster than you would want to hit a moose at, and never speed.

You know so much about VWs, it would be a shame to lose you and your experience on this issue. I have many more questions that I need you to answer. 440 gabillion miles on a bus says it all!

However, I would like "first dibs" on your bus should you decide to not wear seat belts.

I remain mere novice in your presence,
Randy

[Erik G]

I think anybody that drives a bus should go look at busses in the junkyard, and study them very carefully. draw your own conclusions based on the damage you see. I know I drive my bus nice and slow, and tell my passengers to pay attention and be ready to pull their feet up
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[Amskeptic]

[NeverHadaBeetle]

I have a couple of parts busses that are runners, but otherwise toast. I think I'll crash them head on into something with my daughters lifesized Barbie strapped into the front seat. I'll think I'll take video footage also. Does anybody know of crash footage or honest to goodness crash test numbers on the front of the bus. I have seen some fairly minor accidents result in some serious damage, but I have also seen some fairly hard accidents that really didn't get past the front door pillars. Obviously the front nose couldn't survive an impact with a large dog, but what about those door pillars?

[pawesty]

no skeptic, no paramedics with "anecdotal advice" just a paramedic with 14 years experience who has seen many joys and many tragedies in the course of my 48 hour works weeks. i'm also a long time vw owner/driver and still haven't gained the crash test expertise you seem to have mastered. these were merely opinions offered from dad to dad. perhaps i should consult you the next time i find another unbeletd bloody heap in a wrecked car so you can explain the improtance of reation to them, that is, under the assumption i save em.
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"Go smell the wind, go far. Hear the marvelous strange chime of midnight" Kerouac

79 westy
78 westy

purveyor of refurbed westies and parts!!! inquire within!

.