One More Torsion Bar Setting Question

[BampaBus]

I've researched this on Samba pretty thoroughly, and come away without a clear consensus. So I thought I'd throw it out for one more round to see if we can land somewhere on solid ground.

I've a '73 Campmobile with a pretty bad case of rear end sag and camber issues on the rear wheels. Yesterday I tackled the torsion bars. Took a while, but with the help of the Samba community I completed the job. Previous readings on the spring plates were around 19 deg. I set the both at 21 deg. Bentley says 20 deg, 50 min. I installed new donuts.

Results: my camber issue is resolved on the passenger side. There is still a little showing on the drivers side. However, the sag did not improve. I've been using a floor measurement from the front jack point on the pinch seams and comparing that to the rear jack point. Drivers side front is 15 1/4" off the ground, rear is 14 1/2", 3/4" lower rear compared to front. Passenger side front is 15" off the ground, rear is 14 1/4", again 3/4" lower rear compared to front.

Rereading every post I could find, I see two schools of thought. One says the old torsion bars get fatigued with age, and to overcompensate on the spring plate angle through trial and error until you get the bus level. The other says that the bus came from the factory with rear end sag, and to set your spring plates per Bentley and live with the sag. Passenger weight will help offset.

Does anyone actually know for certain if the bus came from the factory with built-in sag?

Should I leave as is, or bump it up a few degrees and closer to level? If so, how far? As usual, all feedback is appreciated.

[VDubTech]

With no one in the Bus, the front end should sit a little higher, and yes it's designed that way.....so when you have people in the front seats, the Bus sits level as it goes down the road.
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[dansvans]

put two people in the front while you remain outside; take measurements and adjust from there as needed. in other words, adjust by final results, not by theory- because yes, the front sits higher than the back empty, and yes, the bars and diagonal arms sag with age- but for all these factors, how much is the question you cannot answer with theory.

[fusername]

and are the jack points on the same horizontal plane? I would check on something like body lines, trim under the windows, the drip guard, or somethign like that. If the trailing arms aren't bent, the camber should be perfect once the torsions are adjusted properly, according to bently.
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[kkirwin]

Before I did the torsion bar adjustment on my bus I took it to an alignment shop and had the tech do some initial measurements on my bus. He said he was able to find the correct camber angle by jacking up the rear end, he said the height of the rear end should be where the fender lip is just at the level of the tread on the tire (185 R14C's). I got it adjusted as close as I could to that height and he still had to do to quite a bit of adjusting when I brought it back for the alignment even though I had my bars up to 25 degrees. To the eye I would say it looks level front to back even with it unloaded in the front.
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1973 Super Beetle
1998 Mazda B3000 4x4
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[JMazier]

I raised my bus to the stock level with the torsion bars and I was still not happy with the height however at the stock degree setting, and with me sitting in it, the front and rear were very close in height. That said, I have recently added a set of coil-over shocks in the rear and now I measure 16” right next to the rear jack point and 15 ¼” next to the front jack point with nobody in the bus. Not sure where you measured from, bottom of the jack point or the body seam next to it however the key is that currently I am ¾” higher in the back now which is wrong. I need to be at least 1 ½” higher in the front to allow for driver weight drop. I am now waiting for a set of coil-overs for the front to get it back up in relation to the rear. Try and get a friend to measure with you in the front to see what the different is then.
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Cheers!

Jérôme

’79 Cali Westy 2.0 F.I.
'74 Honda CB 350 Four
'78 Honda CB 750 K
'12 Golf GTI
'11 Ural Patrol

[busman78]

How can it be wrong to see out the rear view mirror to the horizon, instead of VW's setting getting you a few hundred yards, unless your are short. I set the rear torsion to 28 degrees, that makes the rear a couple inches higher than the front. In my bus the loads will be in the back half, also having a little more ground clearance is often a blessing.

[dwill49965]

I believe it has to do with the angle the CV joints will make with the wheel. Too big an angle will put a lot of added stress on the joint, greatly shortening its life, and also affecting tire wear.

However, that is basically what I've read and gleaned from reading other threads over the years, and reading up at Ratwell.com. I am actually going to adjust mine tomorow for the first time, with 56ovalbug's help.
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Darryl
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'78 Westy, Boston Bob built 2.0 L, FI, Pertronix, MSD 6

[JMazier]

Hey Darryl,

Take some before and after pics for us to see the change.
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Cheers!

Jérôme

’79 Cali Westy 2.0 F.I.
'74 Honda CB 350 Four
'78 Honda CB 750 K
'12 Golf GTI
'11 Ural Patrol

[BampaBus]

Thanks to all for the feedback. In reading your comments then running a search on "camber" I'm still amazed at how far apart some folks are on this issue. I'm seeing spring plate settings of 27 deg when the book calls out roughly 21 deg. That's a huge difference.

I'd just as soon keep it at stock. I figure VW had some idea as to what was best. As mentioned above, when you add a driver it recovers to almost perfectly level. Still very slightly nose up, but I have nearly a full tank of gas. If I get excessive free time at some point maybe I'll bump it up a degree, but that will be as far as I'm willing to go.

Still have some negative camber at unladen rest. But it's not as extreme, and as a number of threads point out this is appropriate. Odd part though is that the both front tires have "positive" camber. The tops lean out from the vehicle. I need to look that one up in Bentley. Maybe it's correct.

[busman78]

21 degrees was the setting when your spring plates were new, so after 36 years of road fatigue suspending a thousand pounds of dead weight the factory setting really is obsolete.

[kkirwin]

[BampaBus]

I agree with you both. Lots of years, lots of wear and tear. The original numbers no longer apply.

Which leads us in a big circle back to the original inquiry: What was the intent of the original design? The concensus seems to be that a new bus had a factory sag, which, when properly weighted with driver and possibly one passenger in the front, caused the front end to drop and the bus to be level. I was hoping to set a baseline like this as a goal.

If level under load is the target, then in my case I am nearly there, and the Bentley recommendations are darn close to being appropriate, even after 36 years. Bumping up a degree to compensate for torsion bar or spring plate aging should offset the loss due to metal fatigue.

I'll try to get to it next weekend and see if it works.

[fusername]

the headlights are set in the bently when the tank is half full and there is a certain weight (180#?) in the front seat, whcih I assume would have been their idea of the 'normal' or most common loading, hence setting things at this position.

VW gives a spec on spring plate angle which corresponds to :
thier idea of a normal lading
all new and stock equip (torsion bars, tires, loading)

your bus is deffinatly worn, may not be totaly stock in weight, and you may often have your bus much more or less laden than VW made thier "average" one-size-fits-all setting for. the torsion bars can be adjusted for one purpose"
setting camber

so I say load up your car in what you think is average loading, check your rear camber, and see houw much higher or lower you need to adjust the bars to get proper camber, set it there and have a bus with suspension tuned to YOUR riding habits.




*yes you can set ride height with them , but you are not .supposed. to
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[Amskeptic]

[BampaBus]

Fusername writes:

[jure-slo]

Can someone please describe the terms "camber" and "rear end sag"?

My bus is pretty low in the back. I'm not finished with my restoration yet, but should i settle that before i take it to wheel alignment?

[fusername]

don't worry about cv wear, that is only an issue if you jack it up an inch or three aboce stock for the ground clearence, they will be fine in your situation.

there are two specs listed for torsion bar settings, depending on if you have a truck camper or panel etc. also there is a HD and light duty torsion bar. yours being a camper should have the beefy ones. I think the spec on HD is 23 deg, and they list like 21 deg 50 min for the std van. this is from memory however.

camber is how much the top of the tire tilts in or out, when viewed from behind. rear end sag is when the back of the bus is lower then the front. bays develop a saggy bum over time, HOWEVER due to the shape of the wheel wells, even when sittting dead level bays appear to be leaning back even when they aren't. so dont let your eyes fool you.
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[dansvans]

[SGKent]

if your car was born as a Westy set it to the camper specs because it has a heavier torsion bar. If it was born as a station wagon set it as a station wagon. Put the rear up on jack stands on a level surface. Put the front on jack stands as close to level as you can but a tad bit lower than the back. Then when you get ready to set it, use your floor jack to raise the nose to where the frame rails and the floor sills are levelest. Then set the torsion bar and the numbers will be dead on and not need any + or -. Be sure to follow Bentley and mark the parts before you begin. We put ours at Bentley and not only does the bus look level but the camber is near perfect and then ground to trans height is dead on. It handles and rides better too. Make sure you dust the new bushings with real talcum powder and not the corn starch stuff.
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