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Rubber Tramp
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2008
Posts: 385
Location: DFW, Texas
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 Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: for 2wd: LSD, LLSD, re-gear stock 4 speed, syncro, 5 speed.. |
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I'm moving this topic from the "SVX owners" thread because I have some more questions and want to stop derailing that thread. Sorry OP!
Okay here's the conversation we've had so far:
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what makes the rear locker dangerous in a 2wd van vs. having one in a syncro? same deal. if you use it correctly its not dangerous and very useful.
... but that being said. I agree having a limited slip differential would be better...even in a syncro for my uses.... plus you don't have to worry about the locker shaft seizing up...which is a real pain in the ass.... and you wouldn't have to pull the shaft on the dash when you "think" you're going to get stuck in something. |
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Not quite the same deal.
A 4WD (when engaged) puts drive to the front wheels. The front wheels are not passively pushed along as they are in a 2WD. In 4WD, the front wheels can "pull" the front end around to counter the locker effect, pushing the vehicle straight foward.
The 4WD drive applied to the front wheels helps the steering bite.. where as in a 2WD, the front wheels only bite in terms of the tire tread's friction against the ground.
Think of going up a steep section in a 2WD with the front end bouncing over uneven dugout steps.. The front tires have very little bite as it is. Now add the rear end locked and you have almost no steering. No way to pick your way thru.. you go where the rear pushes you.
I'd think that a locker in a 2WD could be useful in some situations... Like maybe a really slippery boat ramp.. Or mud boggin thru a straight wet section of trail. It might be useful in deep sand... where you have some room for error.
But its value might be in such a small sliver of real-life driving as to be a near-zero advantage over a Peloquin. |
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| 5 speed trannys are great for a underpowered engine like a WBX. I have one in my WBX powered 2wd and it works great with that motor. With a much more powerful motor like the SVX it would be a waste of shifting effort. I have heard of SVX conversion owners being able to start out in second gear with the torque of the motor. Good luck |
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that makes sense, but i think the fears posted are a little overstated. Like I said before, if the driver is well educated on how the rear diff works and uses it intelligently it is a useful tool.
I use my rear diff lock uncoupled often in the snow and never noticed the steering issue. Its very rare if ever that I would use it in a situation where steering were critical. its usually only to overcome obstacles that i have no business driving through...and then gets disengaged immediately afterwards.
and i do agree that the peloquin would be the better option no matter how you look at it....even in a syncro. The rear diff lock is cool, but I'd trade it for a peloquin in a heartbeat. |
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I went out tonight driving in the truck in the hills and found a big mud puddle in a bend(deep, wide and long). I went through decoupled and had the rear locker engaged. The steering felt oddly light and the truck wanted to go straight even though I was turning, it was scary actually- especially with some trees coming up fast. I went through once in standard syncro mode and once locked and it was boring. I wasn't going slow and it was raining to make it worse.
I did find a puddle deep enough to feel water rush in through the accelerator pedal hole and splash over the headlights and make the trail go completely dark for a moment. Twisted Evil |
Okay so here's my dilemma...
I have a 2wd Westy. I'm building an SVX right now and should have it swapped in very soon. I'm also converting my van into a "faux syncro". I'd like it to go anywhere a syncro or other 4x4 can go, within reason.
my options:
-keep stock 4 speed, rebuild and add LSD
-get a european 5 speed and add a locker, or add an LSD, or an LLSD
-get a syncro transmission and add locker, or add an LSD, or an LLSD
I really want a granny gear, but want an easy installation. This would lean towards the european, it has the same low gear as the syncro and you can add a locker, with the added benefit of it being a bolt on installation.
I will be doing little highways driving, just when traveling. Mostly dirt/gravel roads and trails frequently. I'll be in everything from snow, ice, rain, loose dirt and sand, rocks, steeps....
So what are y'alls opinion on what will be best suited for my needs?
Some say having a rear locker on a 2wd is dangerous. I talked to AAtransaxle and German Transaxle and they both say this is not the case because when you're rock crawling or in sticky situations you are taking your time, not blazing through like a maniac, so you can always unlock it if need be.
German says that having the LSD could be dangerous as well. If I'm on a wet slope, or snow slope, or ice... you have no way of turning the LSD off so there is always the possibility that you lose traction and slide off that cliff right next to you... He says in this case it's better to have an open diff with the ability to use the locker when needed.
Then there's the LLSD, locker limited slip diff, which is just an LSD with the ability to fully lock it.
So, for my uses, LSD, LLSD, or locker?
_________________
1985 SVX powered Westy - soon to be converted to syncro
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=382910
^^^Rocky Mountain Westy SVX rebuild and conversion^^^ |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9923
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: Re: for 2wd: LSD, LLSD, re-gear stock 4 speed, syncro, 5 spe |
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One misconception you have is the 5 speed having the same low gear as a Syncro. Not even close.
The 5 speed does have a lower first than a 4 speed but nothing like the low 1st and reverse gears on a Syncro.
Get a US spec diesel 5 speed with 5.43 r&p, make 4th and 5th much taller, add a locker. The European 5 speeds have taller ring and pinion so low gear is not as good offroad.
This assumes you will have larger tires.
No such thing as a "European 5 speed" really since they used the same ones we have on some models and a bunch of different ones in addition.
Mark
| Rubber Tramp wrote: |
I'm moving this topic from the "SVX owners" thread because I have some more questions and want to stop derailing that thread. Sorry OP!
............
I have a 2wd Westy. I'm building an SVX right now and should have it swapped in very soon. I'm also converting my van into a "faux syncro". I'd like it to go anywhere a syncro or other 4x4 can go, within reason.
my options:
-keep stock 4 speed, rebuild and add LSD
-get a european 5 speed and add a locker, or add an LSD, or an LLSD
-get a syncro transmission and add locker, or add an LSD, or an LLSD
I really want a granny gear, but want an easy installation. This would lean towards the european, it has the same low gear as the syncro and you can add a locker, with the added benefit of it being a bolt on installation.
............. |
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Rubber Tramp
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Joined: October 07, 2008
Posts: 385
Location: DFW, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:28 am Post subject: |
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I'll have to talk with German Transaxle again, maybe I just misunderstood him.
He said he has a 5 speed on stock that has the same low gearing as the syncro and a taller .77 5th.
I'll be using 225/75R 16 tires.
_________________
1985 SVX powered Westy - soon to be converted to syncro
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=382910
^^^Rocky Mountain Westy SVX rebuild and conversion^^^ |
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D Clymer
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Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: |
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The 2WD 5 speed trans has a first gear of 4.11:1 vs the 3.78:1 ratio of the normal 2WD 4 speed. The Syncro does indeed use the same transmission type (094) as the 5 speed 2WD, but it has a 6.03:1 granny gear. That said, the 2WD 5 speed first gear is probably low enough for any off roading with a 2WD you would want to do.
I don't personally think a locking rear diff or a torque biasing rear diff are dangerous on a 2WD van. You just have to know what to expect from it. If you get wheel spin at the rear with either of these differentials both tires will spin and that allow the rear end to "drift". With an open rear diff, you often just get one wheel spinning and the other one kind of anchors the van. I have heard people say that they found their Peloquin differential spooky in the snow on a 2WD van, and in most cases it turns out they were running normal tires. With winter tires the directional stability would be fine. Same basic principal applies to off-roading. Since you want to put together a pseudo-Syncro, I'm assuming you will put all terrain tires on your van. With these, the grip would be great enough that a closed differential would not present a control problem.
If you are serious about wanting off-road ability, I think your only choice is a full locking differential. Vanagon rear articulation is poor, and it is easy to get a rear wheel off the ground. With wheels leaving the ground or becoming completely unloaded you would need a completely locked diff to stay mobile.
Keep in mind also that a Vanagon carries 53% of its weight on the front axle without the driver, so you aren't going to get Baja bug offroad ability with a 2WD Vanagon.
David |
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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What most don't understand about the 2wd 5 speeds and the Syncro 4 plus low gear is that the 1st or granny gear engagement is the same as reverse in your typical 4 speed.
Over, down and into gear.
The shift from this gear is not difficult, but if you plan to use it as your first gear, it is not a quick shift and in town you will find that time needed to make the shift will allow the vehicle to slow considerably.
Many will say that they shift it all the time and it has become second nature or that the shift has loosened up. Exactly. These are the same people that contact me to buy a Syncro shift box because they wore out the shift guides and it is totally sloppy now. Yes the 2wd 5 speed and the Syncro can use the same lower shift housing. This is the metal box below the shifter in the cockpit of the van.
With this said, I prefer a 4 speed with the proper gearing for your engine, driving style and local topography. In a 2wd, I don't see the need to do the 5 speed conversion. I say conversion because you don't just swap the transmission as many have found out. You need the 5 speed linkage as well. Check the GoWesty site for this info. They charge $500 on top of the trans. for the needed parts to make it work.
A Syncro transmission will work in a 2wd if you are willing to fabricate the needed front transmission mounting areas on your vans crossrail. I believe all 86-91 have the crossrail, not sure on the earlier years, and don't quote me on that. It may be a Syncro specific frame part.
What I have seen done if all you want is the diff. lock of the Syncro and 4 speed of the 2wd trans is use the Syncro cases and internals to build a 2wd tranmission with diff. lock. This way the 2wd transmission mounting will stay the same, possible just tweeked a bit. Far less work that fabbing up mounts for a true Syncro transmission.
The downside of this method is that you need a good working 2wd 4speed and a good working Syncro diff. lock transmission to built one unit. If you are looking to do this, make sure to find a Syncro box with good, TESTED, ring and pinion. No whines, no metal in the fluid and so on. That R&P is worth over a thousand dollars as it sits in good condition and they are hard to find.
2wd cases can be machined to build a diff. lock 2wd 4 speed. If your transmission needs a rebuild or is getting regeared than this is a good time to do work like that as it is in pieces anyways.
All 2wd and especially Syncro transmission work that I recommend is forwarded to Daryl at AA Trans. If you don't know of him, worth a looksee or phone call.
As far as locking anything.....they are all great when used properly.
Yes, you will rotate a van in a second if you play around or lift off the throttle when the grip is keeping you moving forward. Every Porsche driver can relate to this at some point. You lift, you loose grip.
I will add that I highly recommend 930 flanges and CVs when paired with the EG33 motor. Being that your van is 2wd this will keep the cost down and just be the four rear CVs, two trans flanges and the two rear stubs that would need to be changed. GW has a kit, Burley makes the stubs and each piece is available separately if you feel like putting it all together yourself. I like the SwayAway shafts over the Empis for sure.
RT, check with Mike about the location of his engine mount as it would possibly need to change location a bit if the Syncro transmission is used.
I would figure that the whole engine would move towards the rear of the van if you moved from a 2wd trans mount to a fabbed Syncro mount using the cross rail. Not a big deal, just a good thing to be aware of before you get into it.
Hope this helps.
dylan |
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ThorAlex
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Joined: August 31, 2006
Posts: 620
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a list of vanagon gearbox codes, some boxes in europe had a factory LSD. You might find something interesting there.
_________________
1990 syncro 1.6TD "Smily"
Ex-vans:
1990 Caravelle coach 1.6TD
1986 Transporter Double cab syncro 2.1 112hp
"I'm wrong so often... It's great!" - Adam Savage |
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the caveman
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Joined: August 09, 2004
Posts: 885
Location: island state of Montreal
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I have an imported ex german army T3 transporter . It came with the special 1.7 l diesel. It had a 5 speed code #ASP 4.11 first gear , .816 5th and a5.5 R/P . No LSD . It was embarassing how easily i would get stuck in almost no snow. Not acceptable where i live. I contacted Aiden who is on the Club 80-90 forums from the UK. He shipped me over a case for a AAN- syncro with a locker and 4.86 R/P and LSD. My only mistake was not also getting the .78 5 th gear. The LSD makes a world of difference-from getting stuck to not even worrying about it. I have run the vacuum lines etc for the locker , but only received the bracket for the dash switch today so ,no the locker isn't hooked up yet. Why in the world someone would advise against having a locker is beyond me, the key is to not leave it on above 15 mph, that's why the switch panel has a light. I hope to have it hooked up in the next couple of weeks, i'll report back. I work at a shop that sells Pinzgauers, Unimogs etc, so i have a lot of pride at stake here so ... :lol: |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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The 5 speeds work great with diesels, not gassers.
The original poster has a 6 cylinder Subaru engine pushing 200+ HP |
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funagon
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Posts: 1308
Location: SLC, UT
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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I've driven 2WD and syncro in snow, ice, and burly offroad dirt hills. For a 2WD van I like the 2WD trans with LSD or TBD, because it's "always on." This is the same reason I like the VC on the syncro, because you don't have to decide when to turn it on. It's always working if you hit an icy patch or washed out, loose part of the trail. This option is also less expensive and simpler (and hopefully you can do burnouts leaving parallel tire tracks in the road). The locker is great for getting unstuck, but if you really want to go everywhere a syncro can go you should get a syncro! not trying to rain on your parade, just suggesting what your next project might be.
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1990 GL 7-passenger
2.2 liter WBX |
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insyncro
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Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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funagon:
if you really want to go everywhere a syncro can go you should get a syncro!
words of wisdom and very true. |
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10077
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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And when you do get one, always remember: 4WD will get you into more trouble than it will get you out of!
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12005
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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A locker doesn't engage/disengage instantly. I have had to back down bad trails before so the locker can disengage so that I could make a tight turn at the top. There is a metal pin that is pushed into the locker mechanism by the actuator but has to be aligned. Engaging on a slow bend seems to make it lock quickly. Disengagement can sometimes be delayed as well.
Something that you might want to know. |
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1303GT
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Joined: November 03, 2009
Posts: 27
Location: South Central Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| the caveman wrote: |
| Why in the world someone would advise against having a locker is beyond me, the key is to not leave it on above 15 mph, that's why the switch panel has a light. |
Exactly
The Toyota Tacoma Pre runners(2wd) and Jeep Rubicon(4wd)
both come with real locking diffs. the key is they turn off when the vehicle exceeds a preset speed, if this type of diff was in any way dangerous they would not be marketed here in the US due to the possible liability.
A 2wd with a locker can go most places a 4wd with open diffs can go.
a 4wd with one or both axles locked can go alot farther.
although for snow driving a good lsd may be a better choice - easy to live with because you dont have to think about it, it just works.
when you reallly get into a tough situation the locker is better because a lsd will not lock solid and still allow one wheel to spin more than the other(depending on how it is set up)
it is really personal choice. for snow and some dirt roads, fire trails etc. I'd go with the LSD. for sand and more serious off roading I'd choose the locker. |
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syncrodoka
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Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
A 2wd with a locker can go most places a 4wd with open diffs can go.
a 4wd with one or both axles locked can go alot farther. |
If you have a 2wd with a locker we should go on a trail ride- I won't use my locker. |
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snoop
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Posts: 350
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
What most don't understand about the 2wd 5 speeds...Many will say that they shift it all the time and it has become second nature or that the shift has loosened up. Exactly. These are the same people that contact me to buy a Syncro shift box because they wore out the shift guides and it is totally sloppy now.
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dylan, lots of good info...as always from you...thank you, but please understand that for one to experience the 5-speed transaxle's 1st to 2nd shift to have become second nature does not neccesitate that the shift has loosened up. My DX transaxle's shifting is both second nature to me and crisp as the day it was rebuilt. The casual reader may not have recognized that you describe two very different persons' experiences with the 5-speed that aren't neccessarily related (indeed they're contra-indicated) but then refer to them together as "these...people" as if their experiences were related...quite misleading, and I'm sure unintentional...presumably those that are contacting you for shift boxes are all in the latter group and none are in the former...just pointing out the distinction for those that might have not noted the subtle but substantive difference.
Regarding the OP's question: I have an 094 DX 5-speed transaxle with 5.43:1 R&P, Peloquin TBD and 0.70 5th gear with a GW 2.4L motor. In combination with 225/75/16 tires it's gearing is as close to ideal as I can imagine. I think for the OP's motor it would also be very good...with 1st as a "granny gear" for off-road crawling and starting from stops on streets in 2nd gear.
Having said that, I do think that the syncro 094 transaxle (4.86:1 R&P) would be the best transaxle choice given the motor that his question considers...why not have a broader gear band? and a lower "granny gear"? (compared to the 5-speed transaxle).
Regarding TBD (or LSD if that's what you want to call it) and locker...get 'em...either or both, the latter being preferable...you'll learn to make use of whatever you've got, why not have more to work with? The sopwith camel handles snow covered grades to ~8" deep and ~15 percent with the TBD in 1st gear (without chains)...locker would increase both numbers.
So...snoop's order of preference for the OP's application:
1) 094 syncro, 4.86:1 R&P, 1.08 3rd, 0.70 4th
2) 094 5-speed, 5.43:1 R&P, 0.70 5th
3) 091 4-speed, 4.86:1 R&P, 1.08 3rd, 0.70 4th
FWIW.
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87 Westy Camper |
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Rubber Tramp
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Joined: October 07, 2008
Posts: 385
Location: DFW, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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wow thanks for all the VERY informative responses!
I really like the idea of having the locking LSD, or torque-biasing, whatever.. My only concern is with the "always on" LSD, I've read that it can be dangerous in snow and ice. Is this true? I won't have true snow tires, I'll be running 225/75R 16 BFG mud terrains, the newer version which is said to be much better in snow and ice, I'll probably be getting them siped as well for better traction in these conditions and in rain.
Regardless of which transaxle I choose, what are the dangers of having the locking LSD?
For the ones who say the best tranny for my purpose would be the 094 syncro because of it's gearing, wouldn't it be better for me to get the 5 speed and have it geared like the syncro that way I won't have to do any fabrication? I could leave 2-4 alone, get the taller .77 5th, and the syncro granny gear/reverse, but in that case I would need a taller R&P right? With the torque of the SVX I would only use the granny gear for crawling and start from stops on the street in 2nd.
_________________
1985 SVX powered Westy - soon to be converted to syncro
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=382910
^^^Rocky Mountain Westy SVX rebuild and conversion^^^ |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 350
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Rubber Tramp wrote: |
...I've read that it can be dangerous in snow and ice. Is this true?
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Not in my experience.
| Rubber Tramp wrote: |
I won't have true snow tires, I'll be running 225/75R 16 BFG mud terrains, the newer version which is said to be much better in snow and ice, I'll probably be getting them siped as well for better traction in these conditions and in rain.
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I have siped 225/75/16 Dean Mud Terrains.
| Rubber Tramp wrote: |
Regardless of which transaxle I choose, what are the dangers of having the locking LSD?
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Stoopid driving  .
| Rubber Tramp wrote: |
For the ones who say the best tranny for my purpose would be the 094 syncro because of it's gearing, wouldn't it be better for me to get the 5 speed and have it geared like the syncro that way I won't have to do any fabrication? I could leave 2-4 alone, get the taller .77 5th, and the syncro granny gear/reverse...
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Syncro 6.03:1 granny gear doesn't fit in the 094 5-speed case.
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Post from SVX Vanagon yahoo group moments ago:
Not my posting, just forwarding.
dylan
On my 84 westy full camper...
300 miles into running the newly installed SVX conversion my ring and pinion started howling. I inquired as to the the best plan to remedy this and was advised. I can not afford to proceed on that at this time so I found a DX model 5 speed from an 84 Diesel Westy...the specs are as follows...
SVX motor, Headers, 2.25" turbo muffler, no cat, Power Chip, Huge K&N air filter. Hp guesstimated to be 250hp
235/75R16 All terrain Tyres
DX Transaxle, 105,000 miles With the following gear ratios...1st 4.11, 2nd 2.33, 3rd 1.476, 4th 1.023, 5th .77. Reverse 3.67 Ring and pinion 5.43. (stock)
I had been running a stock 4 speed gas engine 84 transaxle.
I do not intend to leave this transaxle in, it is a stop-gap measure to get me running quiet for now.
This is an EXCELLENT driving setup!
You can start in second easily and go up to 30 mph, if you are on an incline or pulling a trailer you can put it in 1st, which is a granny gear it does not like to go more than 10-15 mph, but pulls like a Peterbilt up to that speed and shifts into second smooth.
third is the "Around town" gear, it is comfortable up to 50 mph or so
(if you re-read that you can see that you can do 90% of your in-town driving in 2nd and 3rd) Try that in a stock Vanagon.
4th is the "Highway" Gear you put it in 4th AFTER the entrance ramp and cruise right up to 65 if you want.
Around 65 I put it in 5th, which is a TRUE MODERN SPEED OVERDRIVE NOW!!!
I put this on here just FYI, because you can do all the calculatins you want, and in the end you are not going to know how it "Feels" until you drive it.
As you can see the low ring and pinion is overcome by the large tyres and everything works out GREAT. I would highly recommend this setup if the Transaxle could be made Bulletproof with all heavy duty gears, oiler plates, etc. |
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Rubber Tramp
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Joined: October 07, 2008
Posts: 385
Location: DFW, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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is the syncro 6.03:1 granny gear a WORLD of difference from the 094 5-speed granny?
I already have an 094 5-speed case ready to be built when I give the okay, whereas I'll have to source a syncro case... if the 5-speed granny is more than adequate I'd much rather go that route.
Dylan thanks for the post! The 5 speed might be the most practical way to go at this point in time.
So, with the low end torque of the svx will the syncro granny gear be a bit overkill vs the 5 speed? Or will I have major advantages over the 5 speed if I go with the syncro. I've never driven a van with a granny gear so I'm shooting in the dark here...
_________________
1985 SVX powered Westy - soon to be converted to syncro
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=382910
^^^Rocky Mountain Westy SVX rebuild and conversion^^^ |
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snoop
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Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 350
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Tramp,
Based on the posting that dylan shared and the comparative ease of using the 5-speed trans I'd like to change my order of preference listed above...swap #s 1 and 2.
I can't recall needing more grunt with the 4.11:1 1st gear and 5.43:1 R&P...there've certainly been times where simple mobilization of friction was insufficient to carry the van across some terrain...IOW, power supply wasn't the problem, power transfer to the ground was...only remedied by more surface area across which power is transfered...i.e. 4 wheels instead of 2....but now I'm referring to a syncro. With your SVX you'll be able to traverse any terrain that the mobilization of frictional forces across two tires can support irrespective of whether that power is multiplied by a coefficient of 6.03 or 4.11.
BTW, one day I'll get a SVX...and I won't be changing out my DX trans.
FWIW.
Sincere thanks for sharing your project with us.
Mike
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87 Westy Camper |
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