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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:27 pm Post subject: Dashboard fire, 1984 Vanagon |
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Guys,
One of my customers has reported to me that his Vanagon caught fire under the dash. It burned through the master cylinder reservoir before he could hit it with an extinguisher and disconnect the battery. The question I have is what would cause this fire? Obviously, it's wiring related but he told me he hadn't driven the Vanagon for the previous 18 hours. He was just getting in and while loading his son into a car seat his wife noticed the burning smell.
I had him shoot these pics and email them to me and I have not seen the damage yet. I'm posting this thread in the hopes that maybe someone has knowledge of this happening before and can possibly steer me in the right direction as to the source. Normally, I would suspect the ignition switch but since he said he hadn't started the car in 18 hours that doesn't seem to fit. Here's the pics. I know, they suck. TIA for your help.
_________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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squeegee_boy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 762 Location: Langley, BC, Canada
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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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My first suspicion would be a short in the dash light wiring (light blue wire with dark blue stripe coming from the headlight switch and branching at least 6 times as it makes its way across the dash.). There's no fuse on it past the headlight switch, so it relies on the 20A headlight fuse; that's way too big for the ~18GA dash light wire.
The reason I suspect this is that it happened to me. Fortunately I caught it before any major carnage, but it was a very exciting 30 seconds trying to get off the freeway with smoke billowing out of the dash pod. A pretty good Cheech and Chong impersonation
Edit: the van wouldn't have to be started for this to happen, just the running lights/dash lights would need to be one.
Robyn _________________ 1984 FrankenSyncro Westy. EJ25 RMW kit
1971 Super Beetle with an EJ22. Oh yes. Daily driver |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9810 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Well I think I'd start by suspecting anything that is still hot when the ignition is off. I know what those are on my Westy but may be different on different models/years.
Has anyone added a fusible link to the main power feed? I've put these on a couple of my older cars for piece of mind since they have many circuits not protected by fuses, but perhaps it would be a reasonable addition to a Vanagon?
Interesting that there are 18ga wires on a 20amp circuit -- guess that assures that in a short the wiring loom will burn and protect that valuable fuse. |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Here's an update with new pics. The Vanagon is being towed over to my house right now. I'll get back with more later.
_________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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K58 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 1173 Location: Santa Barbara
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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X2 on the guage/dash lights...horrible setup especially when they age and get brittle
another hotspot is the connector for the cig lighter
....and people worry about the fuel lines
btw
love your self absorbed sig geez |
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DAIZEE Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010 Posts: 7552 Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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this scares me. It appears that many of my dash wires have been hard wired bypassing the ignition. I have no sense of smell so I wouldn't know anything until the 'smoke got in my eyes' (sorry couldn't resist) I could see the smoke or the fire. I carry a 2nd fire extinquisher on the front floor and one at the slider
Mostly brittle old lines, a 12 V outlet but not a cig lighter outlet. Should I add in line fuses? if I was going to do that then shouldn't I just lay new wires?.
Interesting to see what didn't burn. The brake/clutch reservoir. Must be heavy duty plastic. _________________ '09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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"btw
love your self absorbed sig geez "
I put that on there because of the signature line some other guy had. I'm not really trying to toot my own horn. Especially when I say I'm superman because I'm the first to admit that I don't know everything about VW's. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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DAIZEE Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010 Posts: 7552 Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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awwww shiat >>>> not superman! oh well _________________ '09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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Volksaholic Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2005 Posts: 1771 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Another thing to look for is damn near anything done by the previous owner... I've seen some scary-stupid stuff, especially done during stereo installations (both pro and owner installed). I imagine it will be pretty self evident when you get the vehicle and pull the instrument cluster and dash. VW historically was a little stingy with fuses... I know the problem areas that I'd find melted on the aircooled VWs but not as familiar with the Vanagon's weaknesses.
pd _________________ 1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251 |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Volksaholic wrote: |
Another thing to look for is damn near anything done by the previous owner... I've seen some scary-stupid stuff, especially done during stereo installations (both pro and owner installed). I imagine it will be pretty self evident when you get the vehicle and pull the instrument cluster and dash. VW historically was a little stingy with fuses... I know the problem areas that I'd find melted on the aircooled VWs but not as familiar with the Vanagon's weaknesses.
pd |
You mean something like this?
I just got my first hour in on the Vanagon and spent most of my time blowing out dry chemical dust.
Found all the wires going to one of the brake switches on the MC all burned through. Still looking
_________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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squeegee_boy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 762 Location: Langley, BC, Canada
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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<pic of tinfoil, bare copper, and madness>
I'm gonna withdraw my suggestion of the dash light wiring now...
Robyn _________________ 1984 FrankenSyncro Westy. EJ25 RMW kit
1971 Super Beetle with an EJ22. Oh yes. Daily driver |
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populuxe59 Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2007 Posts: 87 Location: Green Bay
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:24 am Post subject: |
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That dry chemical is the double whammy. |
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DAIZEE Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010 Posts: 7552 Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:41 am Post subject: |
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You can see that the fire was the most dense and/or the hottest of the front left edge of reservoir. The source might have been below that or that is where the most material that could burn was.
Because the powder chemical makes such a mess and because its a 12V system, could one use water if one had water handy?. Less after mess and water dries. _________________ '09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: |
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populuxe59 wrote: |
That dry chemical is the double whammy. |
It looks like the melt down started at the most forward brake switch connector on the master cylinder. Those wires got hot and started flames which melted the brake fluid reservoir which dumped brake fluid onto the fire. Not sure whether or not the brake fluid ignited.
The wiring repair looks fairly easy. I've replaced both brake switches and now just have to splice in some new wire to them. Piece of cake. Yesterday I was able to order most of the parts needed from thesamba classifieds. All I can assume is the the brake switch somehow failed internally which caused a dead short. This circuit must be hot with the key off but I'm just assuming that right now.
I've cleaned a lot of the dry chemical up but was wondering how corrosive this will be to the dash and wiring. Is there something I can use to neutralize it? _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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DAIZEE Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010 Posts: 7552 Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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is the dry chemical acid or base? _________________ '09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: |
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From doing some online research into cleanup of dry chemical extinguishers I think besides wiping everything down with a damp rag I'm going to mix up vinegar and water and use with a spray bottle on the dash and wiring. It will be a couple days before I power up the vanagon so I think by then the moisture will have evaporated. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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Volksaholic Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2005 Posts: 1771 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:06 am Post subject: |
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aeromech wrote: |
From doing some online research into cleanup of dry chemical extinguishers I think besides wiping everything down with a damp rag I'm going to mix up vinegar and water and use with a spray bottle on the dash and wiring. It will be a couple days before I power up the vanagon so I think by then the moisture will have evaporated. |
What a mess. I'm curious now whether the brake light circuit is fused. Like I said the other day... I think VW has been stingy with fuses in the past on circuits that I would like to see fused.
Your cleaning method sounds good. I don't know what the tap water is like in your area, but around here with our hard water I would use distilled water for cleaning things up.
Oh... and it sounds like the fuse wrapped in aluminum foil wasn't the cause of the problem so you can leave that in.
Paul _________________ 1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251 |
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squeegee_boy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 762 Location: Langley, BC, Canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Volksaholic wrote: |
What a mess. I'm curious now whether the brake light circuit is fused. Like I said the other day... I think VW has been stingy with fuses in the past on circuits that I would like to see fused.
Your cleaning method sounds good. I don't know what the tap water is like in your area, but around here with our hard water I would use distilled water for cleaning things up.
Oh... and it sounds like the fuse wrapped in aluminum foil wasn't the cause of the problem so you can leave that in.
Paul |
Yes, the brake lights on an '84 are fused... it's on the same fuse as the cigarette lighter. You pop the fuse on that by, say, plugging in an inverter, you lose brake lights with no indication that anything's wrong. Ask me how I figured out that little factoid.
At least, that's how my van came from the factory. The wiring molester, err, installer may have changed something in this particular van.
Robyn _________________ 1984 FrankenSyncro Westy. EJ25 RMW kit
1971 Super Beetle with an EJ22. Oh yes. Daily driver |
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Spinal Tap Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2008 Posts: 413 Location: Chicago IL
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:07 am Post subject: |
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squeegee_boy wrote: |
Yes, the brake lights on an '84 are fused... it's on the same fuse as the cigarette lighter. You pop the fuse on that by, say, plugging in an inverter, you lose brake lights with no indication that anything's wrong. Ask me how I figured out that little factoid.
Robyn |
Same as '85's then. A bump of something plugged into the cigarette lighter, and all of a sudden no brake lights! I figured out that the courtesy light above the driver is on the same, always hot, circuit. Now I've made a habit of flicking that light on and off to make sure I have brake lights. _________________ '85 Westy
'74 MG-B
RCB wrote: |
Its called tact...and tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a manner that they anticipate the trip. |
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Volksaholic Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2005 Posts: 1771 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:17 am Post subject: |
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squeegee_boy wrote: |
Volksaholic wrote: |
What a mess. I'm curious now whether the brake light circuit is fused. Like I said the other day... I think VW has been stingy with fuses in the past on circuits that I would like to see fused. |
Yes, the brake lights on an '84 are fused... it's on the same fuse as the cigarette lighter. ....
The wiring molester, err, installer may have changed something in this particular van. |
I guess if that foil covered fuse is the cig lighter/brake light fuse that would at least explain why a fuse didn't blow... although that's a secondary problem to whatever caused the brake circuit to overload. I wonder if Master Electrician also did some trailer light wiring on this van. The trailer wiring on my van was one of those scary-stupid installations. I fixed the worst of it when I got the van, then cut it all out and redid it when I was doing the engine swap.
The funny thing is that most folks who would wrap a fuse with foil are people who tinker enough that they should know better. For example... the pic above, someone knew just enough to run another wire off the fuse block so it's only a small stretch for them to figure out that the fuse they blew protects other wires too. If only they had pulled an inline fuse holder off the hot side and left the original wiring alone...
pd _________________ 1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251 |
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