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DIY Wheel Alignment
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lately, I could schedule at least 4 or 5 Vanagon alignments a week.
Everyone who has contacted me just had a shop do it.
I drove a few of them....WOW, thats what a shop is calling "aligned".

My local muffler brake alignment place charges $175 for a 4 wheel alignment.
I have double checked my "race alignment" with the machine and drove both setups.
I prefer my "race" alignment over the machine.
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BillM
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am one of the recent alignment victims and have become
so disgusted that my van has just been sitting there. I'd like
to blame the GoWesty springs but I have driven a van with
these same springs that handled well. Springs were a bit soft
for my liking but drove well. My van now tracks straight but
want to turn to "easily" to either side if that makes sense. My
next attempt will be to purchase a set of different springs and
attempt my own alignment. This post is a great how to
and appreciate Chris taking the time to lay it out for us.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BillM wrote:
I am one of the recent alignment victims and have become
so disgusted that my van has just been sitting there. I'd like
to blame the GoWesty springs but I have driven a van with
these same springs that handled well. Springs were a bit soft
for my liking but drove well. My van now tracks straight but
want to turn to "easily" to either side if that makes sense. My
next attempt will be to purchase a set of different springs and
attempt my own alignment. This post is a great how to
and appreciate Chris taking the time to lay it out for us.



It aint the springs.
The toe is off.
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Bubusse
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got a professional alignement for 60 $ during the summer, after I changed my tires. Couldn't believe the difference ! Luckilly, it was, indeed, professional. The guy wasn't a 10$ an hour drunkard, but a close to retirement, very knowledgable fellow, who took the time to explain me eveything that he did. I guess I was lucky, comparing to what I read here.
Anyway, it's still an amazing howto, for those who want to know better how it all works. Thanks for sharing !
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denwood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Between this thread and your measurements on air pressures at the rear vent louvers Christopher you get my outstanding posts award. Big props for your very thorough contributions.
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pushkick
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: great post Reply with quote

the only thing is you should show how and where to adjust the caster , camber and toe when they are incorrect. and show an example with pics and what each adjustment acomplishes. i have never done this procedure before and the bently dosent have very good pics or explanation.
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Joe75
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: great post Reply with quote

pushkick wrote:
the only thing is you should show how and where to adjust the caster , camber and toe when they are incorrect. and show an example with pics and what each adjustment acomplishes. i have never done this procedure before and the bently dosent have very good pics or explanation.


I just spent the day with my Syncro on 4 wheel laser alignment machine and can agree with poster above. The Bentley does not show the rear adjustment to well. Once I figured it out I found that what ever type of bar I used to pry the caster and camber into position bent the bar as much as made the adjustments! It is really hard to move the A arms. Did get close in the end. Wish I had taken photos now Rolling Eyes

As for for the front wheel toe alignment I ended up setting the front wheel toe -10 degrees both sides. At least for now they are the same. Which is far better than when I started! I think in hind site that this is wrong but I can revisit the machine next week.
Does anyone know the correct front toe for a Syncro with 15 inch front wheels?

10/10 to the original poster for this post. Amazing info.
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pushkick
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject: here is my experince Reply with quote

first let me say i have a 1990 vw vanagon camper with a 2.1 waterboxer and it is loaded to around 4584 lbs. with me in it and around 235,000 miles. this is the second time i have had an alignment in 145,000 miles. the front bearing nuts were a little loose so i tightened them and on the passenger side the upper ball joint boot was a little torn, (will have to replace after winter maybe). have read the diy post of alignment and several other post but they dont seen to help in this situation. maybe i just dont understand the process enough.

i just had a 4 wheel alignment done at a shop and they used a hunter alignment machine. they gave me a print out of the before and after settings of the caster, camber, and toe front and back, and the thrust angle. they also had total toe front and back. i watched the guy do all the adjustments on the machine and stood right there with him.

now when i took van in it had a slight drift to the right (passenger side) not a pull. the tires where starting to wear on the insides of both front tires, tire wear on the back was even and seemed normal.

when i got this van back it pulled very strong to the right unless you held on to the steering wheel. when i check the print out with the bently they seem to fall within the specs except the rear camber was off by .1 ( havent checked the fully loaded specs with the print out yet) the tires have less than 15,000 miles on them and the shocks are new.

i was wondering what some other people have for settings of the caster, camber and toe on their campers? and how important is the weight factor. the bently gives different settings for fully loaded. need some help. the mechanic said he thought the tires were causing the problem.

this tech article from tire rack is a good reference:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4
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pushkick
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: some settings from hunter machine and bently Reply with quote

actual is current reading after alignment (pulls hard to right)
before is original settings before alignment ( slight drift to right and tires worn on inside in front)
also the mechanic said that nothing was bent and but i might need a new right rear spring (passenger side)it might be getting soft. (because he couldnt dial in the right rear camber, no more adjustment)


Code:
   
                    castor                        camber                            toe
             actual     before          actual         before                actual    before
front L     7.1           2.3            .6               0                  .15         .17

front R     7.2          4.9             .4             -.8                  .17         .16

rear L                                  -1.3           -1.4                    0         .16

rear R                                  -2.2           -2.0                  -.06       -.03

range
hunter

front       7.0 <-> 7.5                      -.5 <-> .5                         .04 <-> .29

rear                                        -1.3 <-> .3                        -.17 <-> .17


range
bently

front
empty    7.0 <-> 7.5                       -.5 <-> .5                           -.08 <-> .42

front
1000 lb  6.25 <-> 6.75                   -.25 <-> .75                           -.08 <-> .42
 
front
2646 lb   5.75 <-> 6                     -.5 <-> .5                              -.5 <-> .5

rear
empty                                       0 <->.17                               0 <-> .17

1000 lb                                    -1 <-> -2                               0 <-> .33

rear
2646 lb                                 -2.33 <-> -2.0                             0 <-> .66

All number are in degrees

             cross castor        cross camber      total toe       thrust angle
           actual  before      actual   before   actual  before   after   before         

front     -.1      -2.6          .2     .6      -.32    .33

range                             -1 <-> 1       .08 <->.58       

rear                                             -.2    .13       .01     .09

range                                          -.33 <-> .33


still have original tires on front rotating them to back

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MayorMcCheese
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know the hex socket size of the upper control arm bolts? None of my hex sockets are big enough so I have to go out and find the correct size.
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Joe75
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MayorMcCheese wrote:
Does anyone know the hex socket size of the upper control arm bolts? None of my hex sockets are big enough so I have to go out and find the correct size.


Think 17mm.
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

17mm is the transaxle drain and fill plugs.

I think the upper control arm bolts are 13mm.
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Orbitald
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I have an '87 syncro with small car springs, larger tires 235/65 16, and my fender lip is at about 30" from the center of my whee, and I have burley ball-joint spacers. It has a pop-top but no westy interior. Most of my miles are put on with little to no cargo although I do take a trip now and then.

I have a question about a recent alignment I had performed at a Firestone tire center.

1) Are these reasonable specs to be using for alignment for my setup? I know they are not Derek Drews but his specs were for a fairly heavy setup.

2) They said my tie rod ends needed replacing and they would be happy to perform the repair for $280. They said the new parts would help with the front Caster angle which was out of spec (per their specs). I don't believe that's correct as looking at the Bentley the Caster is set by adjusting the radius bar.

3)The rear Camber is out and they mentioned something about new Camber Bolts.

Thanks in advance for any advice / suggestions.

David

You can see in the results below:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no expert, but why does their sheet show they set your van to 2WD specs?
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

•Vanagon except syncro• Shocked

The camber adjustment is done by the trailing arm bolts. If yours are siezed they need to be replaced along with the trailing arm bushings since you will have to cut them out.
T3 technique offers the trailing arm bolts. The urethane bushings that burley offers are much easier to replace than stock rubber ones- VC stocks both.
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Orbitald
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the tips. I'm going to check my trailing arm bolts although I don't believe they are seized. And I don't know why the header says 2WD. More to look into this weekend.

D
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orbitald, there are A LOT of red flags going on here.

Quote:
1) Are these reasonable specs to be using for alignment for my setup? I know they are not Derek Drews but his specs were for a fairly heavy setup.


The fact the the sheet says "except Syncro" is a big red flag.

Quote:
2) They said my tie rod ends needed replacing and they would be happy to perform the repair for $280. They said the new parts would help with the front Caster angle which was out of spec (per their specs). I don't believe that's correct as looking at the Bentley the Caster is set by adjusting the radius bar.


Unless there is some miscommunication going on here, this is the biggest red flag. You are correct in that tie rod ends have nothing to do with caster.

Quote:
3)The rear Camber is out and they mentioned something about new Camber Bolts.


There are no camber bolts for the Vanagon. Rear camber (and toe) adjustment is set via slotted holes where the inner and outer bolts pass through. So once again, a red flag.


If I were you, I would find a shop that is more competent, which is easier said than done.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orbitald,
Try Melrose Motores in San Francisco.. on 10th or 11th, right off the 101 across the bridge.
Not hard to get to from O-town.

The tech that works the alignment there owns a syncro.. He did a fine job on my 2WD.
Call the shop and see if the guy still works there.

Best o' luck.

-jd
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Orbitald
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey thanks you guys. I paid extra for Lifetime Alignment at Firestone. I should have known better.

D
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should also call your local better business bureau about that shop. Imagine the damage they are doing to other peoples cars........

Oh yeah, they sell tires too; now I get it.
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