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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Lately, I could schedule at least 4 or 5 Vanagon alignments a week.
Everyone who has contacted me just had a shop do it.
I drove a few of them....WOW, thats what a shop is calling "aligned".
My local muffler brake alignment place charges $175 for a 4 wheel alignment.
I have double checked my "race alignment" with the machine and drove both setups.
I prefer my "race" alignment over the machine. |
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BillM Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 1381 Location: Stonington,CT
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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I am one of the recent alignment victims and have become
so disgusted that my van has just been sitting there. I'd like
to blame the GoWesty springs but I have driven a van with
these same springs that handled well. Springs were a bit soft
for my liking but drove well. My van now tracks straight but
want to turn to "easily" to either side if that makes sense. My
next attempt will be to purchase a set of different springs and
attempt my own alignment. This post is a great how to
and appreciate Chris taking the time to lay it out for us. _________________ Bill M
87 Westy |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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BillM wrote: |
I am one of the recent alignment victims and have become
so disgusted that my van has just been sitting there. I'd like
to blame the GoWesty springs but I have driven a van with
these same springs that handled well. Springs were a bit soft
for my liking but drove well. My van now tracks straight but
want to turn to "easily" to either side if that makes sense. My
next attempt will be to purchase a set of different springs and
attempt my own alignment. This post is a great how to
and appreciate Chris taking the time to lay it out for us. |
It aint the springs.
The toe is off. |
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Bubusse Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2011 Posts: 181 Location: Rimouski, QC
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Got a professional alignement for 60 $ during the summer, after I changed my tires. Couldn't believe the difference ! Luckilly, it was, indeed, professional. The guy wasn't a 10$ an hour drunkard, but a close to retirement, very knowledgable fellow, who took the time to explain me eveything that he did. I guess I was lucky, comparing to what I read here.
Anyway, it's still an amazing howto, for those who want to know better how it all works. Thanks for sharing ! _________________ 89 manual Vanagon GL Wesfalia |
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denwood Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2012 Posts: 1047 Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Between this thread and your measurements on air pressures at the rear vent louvers Christopher you get my outstanding posts award. Big props for your very thorough contributions. _________________ Cheers,
Dennis Wood
The Grape |
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pushkick Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007 Posts: 1366
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:23 am Post subject: great post |
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the only thing is you should show how and where to adjust the caster , camber and toe when they are incorrect. and show an example with pics and what each adjustment acomplishes. i have never done this procedure before and the bently dosent have very good pics or explanation. _________________ i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper |
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Joe75 Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2005 Posts: 260 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: great post |
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pushkick wrote: |
the only thing is you should show how and where to adjust the caster , camber and toe when they are incorrect. and show an example with pics and what each adjustment acomplishes. i have never done this procedure before and the bently dosent have very good pics or explanation. |
I just spent the day with my Syncro on 4 wheel laser alignment machine and can agree with poster above. The Bentley does not show the rear adjustment to well. Once I figured it out I found that what ever type of bar I used to pry the caster and camber into position bent the bar as much as made the adjustments! It is really hard to move the A arms. Did get close in the end. Wish I had taken photos now
As for for the front wheel toe alignment I ended up setting the front wheel toe -10 degrees both sides. At least for now they are the same. Which is far better than when I started! I think in hind site that this is wrong but I can revisit the machine next week.
Does anyone know the correct front toe for a Syncro with 15 inch front wheels?
10/10 to the original poster for this post. Amazing info. |
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pushkick Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007 Posts: 1366
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:01 am Post subject: here is my experince |
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first let me say i have a 1990 vw vanagon camper with a 2.1 waterboxer and it is loaded to around 4584 lbs. with me in it and around 235,000 miles. this is the second time i have had an alignment in 145,000 miles. the front bearing nuts were a little loose so i tightened them and on the passenger side the upper ball joint boot was a little torn, (will have to replace after winter maybe). have read the diy post of alignment and several other post but they dont seen to help in this situation. maybe i just dont understand the process enough.
i just had a 4 wheel alignment done at a shop and they used a hunter alignment machine. they gave me a print out of the before and after settings of the caster, camber, and toe front and back, and the thrust angle. they also had total toe front and back. i watched the guy do all the adjustments on the machine and stood right there with him.
now when i took van in it had a slight drift to the right (passenger side) not a pull. the tires where starting to wear on the insides of both front tires, tire wear on the back was even and seemed normal.
when i got this van back it pulled very strong to the right unless you held on to the steering wheel. when i check the print out with the bently they seem to fall within the specs except the rear camber was off by .1 ( havent checked the fully loaded specs with the print out yet) the tires have less than 15,000 miles on them and the shocks are new.
i was wondering what some other people have for settings of the caster, camber and toe on their campers? and how important is the weight factor. the bently gives different settings for fully loaded. need some help. the mechanic said he thought the tires were causing the problem.
this tech article from tire rack is a good reference:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4 _________________ i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper |
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pushkick Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007 Posts: 1366
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: some settings from hunter machine and bently |
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actual is current reading after alignment (pulls hard to right)
before is original settings before alignment ( slight drift to right and tires worn on inside in front)
also the mechanic said that nothing was bent and but i might need a new right rear spring (passenger side)it might be getting soft. (because he couldnt dial in the right rear camber, no more adjustment)
Code: |
castor camber toe
actual before actual before actual before
front L 7.1 2.3 .6 0 .15 .17
front R 7.2 4.9 .4 -.8 .17 .16
rear L -1.3 -1.4 0 .16
rear R -2.2 -2.0 -.06 -.03
range
hunter
front 7.0 <-> 7.5 -.5 <-> .5 .04 <-> .29
rear -1.3 <-> .3 -.17 <-> .17
range
bently
front
empty 7.0 <-> 7.5 -.5 <-> .5 -.08 <-> .42
front
1000 lb 6.25 <-> 6.75 -.25 <-> .75 -.08 <-> .42
front
2646 lb 5.75 <-> 6 -.5 <-> .5 -.5 <-> .5
rear
empty 0 <->.17 0 <-> .17
1000 lb -1 <-> -2 0 <-> .33
rear
2646 lb -2.33 <-> -2.0 0 <-> .66
All number are in degrees
cross castor cross camber total toe thrust angle
actual before actual before actual before after before
front -.1 -2.6 .2 .6 -.32 .33
range -1 <-> 1 .08 <->.58
rear -.2 .13 .01 .09
range -.33 <-> .33
still have original tires on front rotating them to back |
_________________ i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper |
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MayorMcCheese Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2009 Posts: 652 Location: Lancaster PA
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone know the hex socket size of the upper control arm bolts? None of my hex sockets are big enough so I have to go out and find the correct size. _________________ wv2yb0252gg092706 |
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Joe75 Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2005 Posts: 260 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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MayorMcCheese wrote: |
Does anyone know the hex socket size of the upper control arm bolts? None of my hex sockets are big enough so I have to go out and find the correct size. |
Think 17mm. |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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Orbitald Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2004 Posts: 320 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
I have an '87 syncro with small car springs, larger tires 235/65 16, and my fender lip is at about 30" from the center of my whee, and I have burley ball-joint spacers. It has a pop-top but no westy interior. Most of my miles are put on with little to no cargo although I do take a trip now and then.
I have a question about a recent alignment I had performed at a Firestone tire center.
1) Are these reasonable specs to be using for alignment for my setup? I know they are not Derek Drews but his specs were for a fairly heavy setup.
2) They said my tie rod ends needed replacing and they would be happy to perform the repair for $280. They said the new parts would help with the front Caster angle which was out of spec (per their specs). I don't believe that's correct as looking at the Bentley the Caster is set by adjusting the radius bar.
3)The rear Camber is out and they mentioned something about new Camber Bolts.
Thanks in advance for any advice / suggestions.
David
You can see in the results below:
_________________ '87 Syncro Westfakia, 1.9TD ADE (AAZish), 068 Injection Pump, K03 turbo, 2.5" exhaust, Mercedes nozzles, SAAB Blackstone charge-cooler w/ 800cfm fan, Micro-1000 EGT sensor pre-turbo, boost at about 13psi, 235/70/16 with stock gearing |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002 Posts: 12785 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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I'm no expert, but why does their sheet show they set your van to 2WD specs? _________________ It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net |
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syncrodoka Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005 Posts: 11998 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:53 am Post subject: |
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•Vanagon except syncro•
The camber adjustment is done by the trailing arm bolts. If yours are siezed they need to be replaced along with the trailing arm bushings since you will have to cut them out.
T3 technique offers the trailing arm bolts. The urethane bushings that burley offers are much easier to replace than stock rubber ones- VC stocks both. |
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Orbitald Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2004 Posts: 320 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the tips. I'm going to check my trailing arm bolts although I don't believe they are seized. And I don't know why the header says 2WD. More to look into this weekend.
D _________________ '87 Syncro Westfakia, 1.9TD ADE (AAZish), 068 Injection Pump, K03 turbo, 2.5" exhaust, Mercedes nozzles, SAAB Blackstone charge-cooler w/ 800cfm fan, Micro-1000 EGT sensor pre-turbo, boost at about 13psi, 235/70/16 with stock gearing |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5375 Location: PNW
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Orbitald, there are A LOT of red flags going on here.
Quote: |
1) Are these reasonable specs to be using for alignment for my setup? I know they are not Derek Drews but his specs were for a fairly heavy setup. |
The fact the the sheet says "except Syncro" is a big red flag.
Quote: |
2) They said my tie rod ends needed replacing and they would be happy to perform the repair for $280. They said the new parts would help with the front Caster angle which was out of spec (per their specs). I don't believe that's correct as looking at the Bentley the Caster is set by adjusting the radius bar. |
Unless there is some miscommunication going on here, this is the biggest red flag. You are correct in that tie rod ends have nothing to do with caster.
Quote: |
3)The rear Camber is out and they mentioned something about new Camber Bolts. |
There are no camber bolts for the Vanagon. Rear camber (and toe) adjustment is set via slotted holes where the inner and outer bolts pass through. So once again, a red flag.
If I were you, I would find a shop that is more competent, which is easier said than done. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Orbitald,
Try Melrose Motores in San Francisco.. on 10th or 11th, right off the 101 across the bridge.
Not hard to get to from O-town.
The tech that works the alignment there owns a syncro.. He did a fine job on my 2WD.
Call the shop and see if the guy still works there.
Best o' luck.
-jd _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Orbitald Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2004 Posts: 320 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Hey thanks you guys. I paid extra for Lifetime Alignment at Firestone. I should have known better.
D _________________ '87 Syncro Westfakia, 1.9TD ADE (AAZish), 068 Injection Pump, K03 turbo, 2.5" exhaust, Mercedes nozzles, SAAB Blackstone charge-cooler w/ 800cfm fan, Micro-1000 EGT sensor pre-turbo, boost at about 13psi, 235/70/16 with stock gearing |
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T3 Pilot Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011 Posts: 1507 Location: Deep South of the Great White North
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: |
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You should also call your local better business bureau about that shop. Imagine the damage they are doing to other peoples cars........
Oh yeah, they sell tires too; now I get it. _________________ 1988 Vanagon
The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel...... |
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