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DIY Wheel Alignment
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have this same Firestone Lifetime deal on 2 different vans, and it IS worth it. But you still have to find a guy that knows what he's doing!

And don't discount his error being a MISTAKE. I'd guess in their menu the 2WD and 4WD are right next to each other, and maybe he hit the wrong button. Or maybe the operator didn't even know where was a 4WD model (did you tell them?).

It's also possible the guy is clueless. You still have to go to stores and find a guy that knows how to turn a wrench and use the machine (Garbage in, garbage out).

I'd go back and politely talk to the manager about the issues, and see how they handle it before getting too upset. Imagine if you were the operator and hit the wrong button, and don't know there's a problem unless the customer comes back, you'd feel like a complete chump!

Camber Eccentric (Upper Control Arms) = CAMBER
Radius Rods = CASTER
Tie rod ends = TOE




Orbitald wrote:
Hey thanks you guys. I paid extra for Lifetime Alignment at Firestone. I should have known better.

D

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Orbitald
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I called the Firestone shop and the manager agreed with me on all the points. He asked me to come back in and let one of his senior techs see if they cant get it right this time. I'm bringing a Bentley too.

D
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awesome. The manager doesn't know there is a problem unless you say so. It's possible an "Apprentice" said "I can do this one" and really doesn't know what he's doing yet, and is gonna get a nice education in the next day or so from a Senior Tech and/or manager. Also, you've reduced the possibility of the next guy having a similar experience.

Get the name of the guy that does it right, and make sure he's the one that does it again when you go back.

Orbitald wrote:
I called the Firestone shop and the manager agreed with me on all the points. He asked me to come back in and let one of his senior techs see if they cant get it right this time. I'm bringing a Bentley too.

D

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Orbitald
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the Bentley I think I'm getting a handle on the alignment specs. All except the toe spec which I have two questions about.

1) My fender lip is 20", or 508mm, above my wheel center which gives me a total toe of about 20' or 10' per side (which strangely enough is the same as the 2WD). Looking at the tolerance band for total toe I read between about 22' and 17.5' which is about +/- 2.25' which is far less than the +/- of 15' given in the book for 2WD.

Is this right or is the tolerance band for the actual total toe and then I add +/- 15'?

I do see that Derek Drew's toe was +/- .033 which is about +/- 2'.

2) How does this spec change with ball joint spacers in place? Should I subtract the ball joint spacer from the fender lip to wheel center measurement? Or some multiple of that thickness?

Thanks,

David R.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burley called and said it was his opinion that the ball joint spacers don't change the specs for toe or camber and to use the Bentely Syncro specs for the fender lip distance of your particular syncro.

I decided to use the tolerance band for total toe as the max min settings for my toe.

Below is what I'm going to use on Monday.
VANAGON SYNCRO --'86-'91 ALIGNMENT SPECS FOR:

- Passenger Model with Fender lip to Wheel Center 20 in. - EMPTY
- Based on Syncro chart page 44.3a


ORDER OF WORK

Alignments MUST be performed in the following order to avoid one adjustment from changing other adjustments:

1st Castor
2nd Camber
3rd Toe

SPECIFICATIONS

Front
--------------------
Min. / Max.
--------------------
Camber: 0.00 / +0.67
(+20’ +/- 20’)

Caster: +4.4 / +4.9
(+4° 40’ +/- 15’)

Toe: -0.18 / -0.15
(Chart: 22’ – 17.5’)





Front

-----------------

Min. / Max.

-----------------

Cross Camber: 0 / 0.33

Cross Caster: 0 / 0.5

Total Toe: -0.37 / -0.29

Setback: 0 / 0.5




Rear
--------------------
Min. / Max.
--------------------

Camber: -0.4 / 0.25

Toe (each): -0.08 / +0.25


-------------------------

Rear

-----------------
Min. / Max.
-----------------

Cross Camber: 0 / 0.3

Total Toe: -0.16 / +0.52

Thrust angle: -0.10 / +0.10


---------------------------
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the Firestone guys did a good job but they said they could not get it perfect. They did say that for the Syncro, their computer ask for the fender lip-to-wheel center distance to that seems promising.

If anyone in the bay area needs an alignment you can call Lennox Hunte, General Manager, Firestone , 4238 Broadway, Oakland CA 510-653-9680 and they promised to do their best to get your Vanagon aligned properly.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could be oversimplifying this so by all means correct me. To find caster you would turn the front wheels x degrees and note the camber change. Using this change in camber you can determine caster.

There is a flat spot cast onto the back edge of the knuckle by the upper ball joint that I have found to be parallel with the ball joints. If this is the case, couldn't a small digital angle finder be used to find what the caster is without other tools or turning of the wheels. To me this seems to simple so I think I may be missing something.

This is what I was going to use as a reference point for caster on my buggy build.

Brian
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found this thread as I was searching for alignment specs, as my Bentley is at home. Great job explaining this Chris! Chris has been super helpful getting the CLK wheels on my van and selling me the poly bushings I needed! I actually do my own work on my van and manage a shop (not van centric). We have a lift with a flat table on it that we do alignments on pretty much just like he explained for people to do at home.

Really impressed with Chris yet again. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuleinc, where is your shop in the East Bay Area?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

West Oakland. We did a quick and dirty alignment on my van in the parking lot, steering wheel and tracking is better than it has ever been since I've owned the van... Time and driving will reveal how close we got it with tire wear Laughing Pretty busy getting the van ready to go to Tahoe for our 4 year anniversary this weekend, so not much time for a proper on the table alignment. We sort of skipped over checking the castor, which I'm sure is off as I changed the radius bushings. All in good time.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:13 am    Post subject: syncro alignment specifications Reply with quote

just got my syncro all re-assembled after taking apart all front and rear suspension (and more) and need to get it aligned - all 4 wheels.


Took it for a first drive and it didn’t pull to one side or the other, steered effortlessly and seemed perfect. I had set the toe-in to about 1/16 inch with a tape measure and other alignment settings (front and rear) were made by putting things back together as closely as possible to the original location. I made careful measurements of the positions of all 4 trailing arm bolts (in the rear) prior to dis-assembly as well as noting how many threads were showing on the radius rods (for caster at the front) but the front camber settings could be wildly off as I just put the upper control arm eccentric bolts in mid position.

Are the figures given here the ones to use:
http://www.vanagonauts.com/44.3a-Syncro-Alignment95.htm

The shop I am planning on taking it to has a Hunter alignment machine.

thanks,
Ed
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to say thanks for the help and to add an idea.

When adjusting toe on a level surface a cheap solution for a material to use under the wheels to let them move while making adjustments is heavy trash bags. I used some thick black 'can liners' and they were very slick and worked great!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment Reply with quote

After doing some reading this seems like a good thread to post a radius rod nut(s) and bushing adjustment question to.

Context: I recently did a lot of homework and bought all the component parts for a front end suspension rebuild. I took the van to a reputable Vanagon shop to have the work done. The shop had the van aligned after the suspension work was done and the van drives very nicely. I noticed however that the driver's side radius rod locking nut is very close to the top of the rod threads, meaning that the locking nut is on the rod just a turn or two from the end, exposing just a thread or two. The passenger side locking nut is several turns down the rod exposing maybe 1/4" of threads. I would feel better seeing a few more threads showing on my driver's side rod.

Questions:

1. To adjust this can I turn the nut on the radius rod closest to the lower control arm a turn or three and then tighten and torque down the locking nuts without doing anything else?

2. If I adjust this nut / bushing assembly down 1/4" or so per the above method will I run a good chance of fubaring the caster or other alignment specs?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment Reply with quote

Skidub wrote:


1. To adjust this can I turn the nut on the radius rod closest to the lower control arm a turn or three and then tighten and torque down the locking nuts without doing anything else?

2. If I adjust this nut / bushing assembly down 1/4" or so per the above method will I run a good chance of fubaring the caster or other alignment specs?

It does not matter if the radius rod nuts match each other side to side.

What does matter is the caster setting. As long as the caster is in spec, they are good.

If you turn the nuts fore or aft, you will alter the caster setting. So you should only adjust them in the context of an alignment.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment Reply with quote

Zak99B5, thanks for the info, that's sort of what I figured. I don't want to mess with the alignment. The van is driving great.

I guess my concern really is whether or not it matters how far down the threads the locking nut is. If it's torqued to spec I can't imagine it loosening up and backing off over time, but that's what I want to avoid or be concerned about.

Picture of each side of the van below for reference:

Passenger Side Lock Nut
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Driver's Side Lock Nut (one in question)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment Reply with quote

USDM 86-early89 Syncros have the two piece radius / lower control arm setup.

late 89 - 91, have cast LCAs and the RR is threaded into the casting.

The sleeve of the radius rod bushing is what dictates when it is properly installed.
The subframe mounting area must be clean of all scale and debris before assembly of the suspension should happen.
We can see multiple thread differences is opposing parts, but it is always a good idea to just double check that the parts have seated equally, and offer not free travel of these parts.
When connected, no suspension part should free move from hand strength movement of it.

If everything feels tight, the vehicle drives at 45mph without vibration and a centered steeriing wheel that does not pull to either side....a few extra threads can be lived with Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment Reply with quote

Nothing movable by hand force - check
Everything feels tight - check
No vibration at 45 MPH - check
Centered steering wheel that does not pull to either side - check

It's all good. Thank you, and if you recall I had the front end moan. I did nothing and it's gone. At least for the last two days. I think everything did settle in per your comment, Dylan.

Thank you! Go Seahawks!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment Reply with quote

Skidub wrote:
Nothing movable by hand force - check
Everything feels tight - check
No vibration at 45 MPH - check
Centered steering wheel that does not pull to either side - check

It's all good. Thank you, and if you recall I had the front end moan. I did nothing and it's gone. At least for the last two days. I think everything did settle in per your comment, Dylan.

Thank you! Go Seahawks!


Settling in can take a little time.
What I do most of the time, in a huge parking lot, start making large sweeping turns and turn into it while letting off the gas, than back on lightly and turn making a counter turn in a large sweeping motion, let of the gas and turn in.

If you are going to hear popping, clicking and banging, this should produce it.

Pay close attention to the feel of the driveline during the on and off the throttle and counter steer...any shimmy, shake or vibe???
If no, keep it greased, it's good to go.

Once you have reached this level of driving...a paint pen is a good thing to drain on fasteners, alignment marks, maintenance records...paint it up so you can see if things loosen or shift from marks.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment Reply with quote

I thought I'd ask my question here rather than in a new thread--

Hitting bumps makes my van want to go out of alignment. Specifically, it can alter the camber setting. Even with grossly overtorqued hardware. It goes negative.

My question is if there's a torque arm at one position that can be eliminated.

Looking at the eccentric washer from the end of the UCA spindle, let's say my camber is in spec with the bolt at the 2 o'clock position. It should also be in spec with the bolt in about the 4 o'clock position, as it is equally as far from center as 2 o'clock.

With the bolt at 2 o'clock, the force of suspension compression (through the spindle) is along outside edge of the circle at an oblique angle, and its direction leads directly toward the spindle moving to 12 o'clock, its resting position because of gravity (where it would be if the spindle nut were never tightened).

Now, my thought is that at the 4 o'clock setting, the camber of the wheel would be the same, but suspension compression might not lead to losing camber adjustment because the torque arm would be smaller. But more importantly, the wheel would have to move through max positive camber (3 o'clock) to get to that resting position.

I guess I am thinking of it like an inverted bike pedal--it's much easier to push the pedal down to 6 o'clock from the 4 o'clock position than it is from the 2 o'clock. Even more pronounced difference in the 1 and 5 o'clock positions.

Does this make sense? And if it does, is it correct, or am I not seeing something? I'd like to know before I go into the alignment shop and try to explain all this to them that it is worth it......
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Wheel Alignment Reply with quote

I completely understand your theory, and while it may work, I've never tried so I can't be sure.

The bigger question is why is the bolt not keeping the assembly tight enough to prevent it from rotating? If it were me, I would do a couple of things to try to resolve that issue. First, I would clean up any grease or other lubricant that may exist between the eccentric washers and the chassis. Second, I would make sure that the washer being used between the nut and the bushing sleeve is the correct one. It should be about 6mm to 6.5mm thick or so. If you have a thinner washer, it could be either deforming or possibly allowing the nut to bottom out on the threads. And the last thing, it may be that the nut is loosening on the threads. That nut is a self locking type and those are usually considered a one-time use item. Sure, lot's of people reuse them and get away with it, but that doesn't make it technically correct.
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