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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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loogy wrote: |
Maybe I missed it, but I think that the biggest hurdle in doing a mid-engine conversion would be the inner rear suspension pick-up points. I haven't actually measured the distance between the two, but they appear to be too close together to allow the engine to fit. They are certainly too far rearward to allow the engine to sit behind them. For that matter, it appears as though the entire your suspension crossmember is too far back to allow even a four cylinder Subaru engine to fit.
The fix for this might be to use the entire front section of the SVX frame including the SVX suspension. However, the pitfall of doing that is that you will have to re engineer the braking system, and possibly the springs and shocks, to ensure proper balance.
No matter how you go about it, it's going to be a whole boat load of work, which I am all for as long as you realize it up front. |
Yeah at that point.. maybe its easier to put the engine between the front seats (like those old Dodge vans).. Then you could do the entire SVX AWD system.. just lengthen the driveshaft to the rear diff...
hmm...
<thinking>
Maybe I'll keep my Westy stock and find a beater Baywindow to do that to. _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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thummmper Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 2015 Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Randy, they did that at uc davis--electric vanagon on utube.
not all svx's are automatics, are they? these transmissions are some kind of wunderkind as far as efficient design. the mileage possibilities leave the 091/094 in the stone age. so get a big cooler. they also take v8 power with no mods. its so easy to dump 2k into an 091. Again redesigning the vw.
I wouldnt need a reverse gecko manifold, the bell adapter, flywheel, clutch, and its already pointing toward the radiator.
if We can solve the suspension clearance problem and jig a universal subframe then it would be officially the next logical evolution.
the 2.2, for example, is 28.5" wide, from cover to cover. the dimension between the inboard control arm bush points is 23-1/32". not enough room. If the points could be relocated, I could avoid the humvee retrofit suspension.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/656146.jpg
Last edited by thummmper on Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:00 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5391 Location: PNW
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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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thummmper wrote: |
not all svx's are automatics, are they? |
From the factory, yes! Some have been converted to manual though. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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thummmper Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 2015 Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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I read in motortrend or somewhere that the constant velocity trans is so much more efficient than anything else around...I don't always speak in generalities....
well. at least that would make it easier to remote the shift selector.
Hey, DK, can you measure the width of your 3.3 from cover to cover?
I went to the svx site. They all think they are fighter pilots. we are frickin hippies to them. HA! " whose gonna want our engines next? the kia guys?GRRR---VANAGONS!"
the scuttlebutt there is that the trannys are redesigned to eliminate oil starvation at 3rd and 4th gears starting in '98.
todd |
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thummmper Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 2015 Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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okay--the reason the svx's are toasting their transaxles is because of the loose nut behind the wheel--and that the all wheel drive in combination with the brute strength of the 3.3 just overpower the clutches--that and the oiling problem up to 97 of 3rd and 4th clutches. they also had stronger clutch housings as a refit that were stsndard on the 98+, but I think that was a trans generic app fix, as the svx was discontinued in 97.
the 4eat, 5eat transaxles were of issue. [electronic automatic transmission] ring pinion is 3.9 and the power is smooth. there is no penalty in mileage with these trans's, either.
now, the trannys that came with the 3.0 tribeca [06+], and the outback limiteds [01+], are similar in base, but have many reengineered systems that the EZ3.0 D and R feed easily.
The eat4's and eat5's are upgradeable to '98+ standards, but you better get them fr free. probably 700.00$ to upgrade. thats cheaper than a rp for a vgn trans.
Todd |
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thummmper Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 2015 Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:25 am Post subject: |
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latest update
the svx, porsche, and ez3.0 are all flat six's that require re-engineering the vanagon rear suspension. DISQUALIFIED. too bad too--the 3.2 boxster package solved a lot of problems just sitting on the floor--emissions for one [most important]
I disqualified the nissan maxima v6, gm 3.8 fireball v6, ford sable v6, honda zetec, etc because I don't want a lateral powerplant. too many things have gone sideways lately...
after consulting a california air resources board referee greg rodriguez, I learned enough to seriously narrow the field of donors to almost none.
Almost.
the mix and match of engines and transmissions with adapter plates is no longer acceptable. that is fine. that is one of the main reasons I wanted a mid placement in the first place. fwd to rwd. the exhaust has to be
preserved in its federally certified state. that could make or break the
project. everything must be OE for emissions.
longitudinal fwd donors included saab 900, audi a4/a6, chrysler LHS.
the saab is too tall with the transaxle underneath the crank.
the audi v6's were inadequate and leak like a vw.
my final chioce, after today talking with a factory line mechanic is the 1994 chrysler 3.5 sohc mpfi belt driven non interference v6. 24 to 27 mpg hwy. 215 hp, 221 ftlbs torque. there are bulletins on the engine and trans and they have been corrected with replacement part upgrades.
now here's the cool deal besides the fact that they are made in michigan.
It fits handily between the control arm pickup points in the vanagon.
with some square perimeter tubing , the frame can be cleared and resubstantiated much easier than originally thought. the v6 needs a narrower trench than the flat 6 to lay in.
It's taken me a month to get this far. it will possibly spoil the center place in the back seat but will stand well below the deck and possibly behind the plywood too. scale drawings are next. next week.
todd |
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VisPacem Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2007 Posts: 1143 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:46 am Post subject: Re: Mid-engined SVX/Vanagon? |
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dkveuro wrote: |
Anyone know if this has been attempted ?
I have a 1995 SVX car complete....all the windows where broken out in a parking lot !
I would like to install the complete 2 wheel drive transmission and engine with the engine froward of the transmission so the engine would be coming into the 'cargo' area.
I see this as a better way to 'gear' the Vanagon and weight distribution would be better. Plus no need for an Adapter Kit. Saving $500.00.
I don't care about having to cut the rear bulk head and reinforce the floor/frame, I would rather do this than the usual way. I can build a 'Dog House' for the part of the engine sticking forward.
I am the only user and it's a Rat Rod type of truck anyway.
1986 2.1 ltr Sunroof Vanagon. Already have Passat 15"rims with spacers and looking for 16's . Would be used as my Shop Van mostly.
We did this with a 1968 Bus many years ago using a Rover V8 engine/automatic with a 4 inch long drive shaft.
How about it?
. |
Fix the windows _________________ LG aka VisPacemPB, *The* party Pooper
No Regrets (Nothing to do with Vanagons) |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: |
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If your thinking Mid Engine, why cut yourself short with a Subaru?
A small block Chevy would be a natural--and the Van would fly---
700R4 trans & a 10 bolt Ford posi front loader would be the hot set up. _________________ T.K. |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16504 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:22 am Post subject: |
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thummmper wrote: |
latest update
my final chioce, after today talking with a factory line mechanic is the 1994 chrysler 3.5 sohc mpfi belt driven non interference v6.
todd |
Terry Kay wrote: |
If your thinking Mid Engine, why cut yourself short with a Subaru?
A small block Chevy would be a natural--and the Van would fly---
700R4 trans & a 10 bolt Ford posi front loader would be the hot set up. |
_________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:25 am Post subject: |
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thummmper wrote: |
after consulting a california air resources board referee greg rodriguez, I learned enough to seriously narrow the field of donors to almost none.
Almost.
the mix and match of engines and transmissions with adapter plates is no longer acceptable. that is fine. that is one of the main reasons I wanted a mid placement in the first place. fwd to rwd. the exhaust has to be
preserved in its federally certified state. that could make or break the
project. everything must be OE for emissions. |
Hi Todd,
Coud you elaborate on what exactly the ref said about "mix and match" using adapter plates?
i.e. Is it ok to mix and match using a bellhousing and "converting" using a modified input shaft?
I know an SVX was just stickered by a BAR ref just a couple weeks ago using a Vanagon automatic trans, adapter plate, and SVX (ODBI).. but it was the owner's third visit using three different refs.
The other points regarding exhaust (header to last cat must be preserved) and emissions system intact is well understood and well documented.
I am hearing mixed messages on the transission point, however.
i.e. If the engine is ODBI, there is no emissions system involved with the transmission.. I understand the "matched transmission" logic if an ODBII engine is used.
Are each of the engines you're considering ODBII?
Any more detail?
Thanks
jim _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Tristar Eric Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2004 Posts: 1242 Location: Portland, Or
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: |
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I'm leaning towards a transverse mounted swap. There was a guy in the UK doing one into a panel van.
How about a TDI, along with it's transmission mounted just like it is in a Golf or Jetta? |
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thummmper Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 2015 Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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The ref used phrases like " you can't just make up your own exhaust system. It has to be factory for that powerplant.
because of the electronic transmissions of the 90's on- they want OE engine/trans sets only. Up til I heard that, I was leaning toward the chev
4.3 injected in front of an a6 transaxle.
This guy wants factory certification, meaning that if the factory never combined those two together, it will not fly. seems there should be some latitude for mixing within a factory inventory, like using all vw. it may not be an issue if all you did was the aftermarket input shaft. they are referring to modern electronic engines that throw electronic trans codes when bolted to a vanagon trans.
that svx/vanagon autotrans was not the rule. lucky man. california smog rules are in force for 14 western states.
if you are using 2 totally different donor vehicles from different manufacturers, then they want the whole enchilada for the power package.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/674319.gif
terry, I hear ya. That would feel great behind the wheel. I know someone has already done it. the issue here is that I want more from a conversion.
I want as much of the back seat as possible, mileage, torque, economical
parts, parts abundance, maybe some damned yankee tech to boot, reliability, easy maintenance, easily repeated in a kit, possibly.
and I am partial to a 3 to 4 litre six. an oversized engine negates the re-engineering of anything, much less the added cost.
I'm trying to skate by with an obd1 swap. don't think I'm gonna need that aft heater anyway.....
also the tdi shouldnt be a problem, but that merits a direct question to the ref. vanagon certified the diesel already with the feds. a sideways engine/trans installation would come under similar scrutiny, but, being a clean modern diesel should get you some points. good questions.
todd |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Here in Illinois you pretty much can run what ya brung--seeng as the emissions laws, BS, or whatever fits your needs, isn't applicable for anything prior to 96.
Before they saw the light I wanna tell you getting a Vanagon through the testing lanes was a 3 ring circus.
They rate the vehicles emissions standards by the weight of it---
So--in normal thinking some carzy loking ride rolls in that weighs around 4000 lbs, shoud have more than 95 horses to move it--therefore it should have a big enough engine-and that engine shold be emitting X number of hyrocarbons, monoxides, yada, yada,yada.
The formula just didn't make it --and they would spin the hell outa the back wheels trying to get it to get close to passing.
Finally after an hour on the roller's they figred out that there was no way, they gave you a pass--and down the road you went---
A late model computerized 350 with a computer 700 R-4 over drive gear box would work out well, and give you better or the same mpg as the wasserleaker anyway.
Think about a LT-1 Buick Roadmaster wagon, or a Chevy Caprice SS.
They both were / are rocket ships, and will give mid 20 mpg ( without your foot in it.)
I'll have to find the the pictures of the type 1 bus that the guy bolted the small block in back and runs it at Bonnevile.
Neat item, and I can see this set up on the street with no problem.
Your right on parts availability--who doesn't have Chevy parts? _________________ T.K.
Last edited by Terry Kay on Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thummmper Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 2015 Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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the last firebirds and camaros were getting up to 28 mpg with a smallblock. a friend swapped that package into an el camino. all electronically controlled--impressive. I just have a hang up about solo drivers of v8's. my v8 days are over. unless I need to tow something.
todd |
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dkveuro Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2006 Posts: 80 Location: Here and there.
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Well it's been a while and here's the new thinking..........
I have been beating up I-35 Imports for a year on their Porsche 928 transmission they keep putting on eBay.
So far they wont take my offer. They have a 'Buy It Now' of $950.00..
There is one in Az for $450.00 but shipping is steep.
So I am looking out for a $400.00 trans from a late 928.
This would be mounted in the rear and coupled to the drive axles and a shaft to the mid engine, a la Porsche 928..
Due to the rise in gasoline of late I am now contemplating a turbo diesel engine and veggie oil to run it. A friend of mine has a 500 gallon stash and is willing to supply.
So my SVX engine will be for sale soon.
Was thinking along the lines of a V6 CD Mercedes engine but too much wiring involved.
Then maybe a Volvo straight 6 of 1980 up vintage.... D24TIC ?
Next would be a TDi although it would be stressed bumped up to 130hp.
Perhaps a Subaru Boxer...and also/or Mercedes 300D engine.
Any of you any other ideas? _________________ dk |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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OM602: Five cylinder 2.5L turbodiesel 121hp/166ft/lbs in stock form. Can be bumped up to over 400HP with a stock long block. I have a slightly modified version in my daily driver.
I like the previous suggestion to just do a mid-engine swap of a complete Golf tdi engine and trans in its FWD orientation. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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thummmper Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 2015 Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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sorry for the previous hijacking, but this thread inspired the middie--
heres a dwg i did while researching power options- its a 3.0 but relative
to your original thread intent
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