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tundrawolf Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2009 Posts: 1384 Location: RIP Mishomi my friend. I will always love you.
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:16 am Post subject: What is the real difference? Mahle VS. Chinese |
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Hello,
I have been looking for some piston/cylinder kits, and see that the Mahle kit is $30 more than the Chinese kit. How bad is the Chinese kit? I'd rather have something I can rely on. I just would like to know the opinions and especially the experiences with the Chinese units. |
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kaiser Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2005 Posts: 205 Location: ct
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:22 am Post subject: |
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30 bux is cheap insurance. |
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Gary Person of Interest
Joined: November 01, 2002 Posts: 17069 Location: 127.0.0.1
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:27 am Post subject: Re: What is the real difference? Mahle VS. Chinese |
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tundrawolf wrote: |
Hello,
I have been looking for some piston/cylinder kits, and see that the Mahle kit is $30 more than the Chinese kit. How bad is the Chinese kit? I'd rather have something I can rely on. I just would like to know the opinions and especially the experiences with the Chinese units. |
Read this thread. Overall, you pretty much answered your own question. _________________ West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) |
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4Doora Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2006 Posts: 1153 Location: Hudson, NH
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Go for the mahle, $30 is nothing for the increase in quality.
I wish I had taken some pictures, but my father and I took an engine apart a while back that we had used JC whitney crap on, and the pistons and cylinders were horribly scratched... It looked like someone had tossed them into a wood chipper. This was only after maybe a couple hours worth of run time into and out of the garage. It seized shortly after the rebuild due to a poorly honed case we tried to reuse _________________ '69 Bug,'71 Bus,'61 Bug ,'56 Bug, '66 Panel |
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19super73 Hardcore Stock Nazi
Joined: October 18, 2007 Posts: 4351 Location: Cité Soleil
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didget69 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004 Posts: 4925 Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:42 am Post subject: |
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True Mahle Piston/Cylinder sets are quality items; the Chinese sets are best used as examples of what not to do...
bnc _________________ I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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tundrawolf Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2009 Posts: 1384 Location: RIP Mishomi my friend. I will always love you.
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Thanks guys! |
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shawns73 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2007 Posts: 123 Location: Toronto, Ont., Canada
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:13 am Post subject: |
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I purchased a cheap set for a rebuild about 2 years ago ( didn't know any better then ) and one went out of round. A good mechanic told me the difference between those and the Mahle - and I had him put a set on instead. Sometimes experiencing issues like this ( I've had others ) helps newbies like myself understand the reality of using better, quality parts. _________________ http://www.zazzle.ca/shawnsclipart |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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didget69 wrote: |
True Mahle Piston/Cylinder sets are quality items; the Chinese sets are best used as examples of what not to do...
bnc |
Not always true at all. The Chinese parts are not examples of bad design...or bad manufacturing equipment or lack of know-how. In fact...most of the Chinese piston companie's manufacturing equipment is far newer and more advanced than virtually any other company that has been around for ages.
The issue is quality control. Some sets are excellent...some not. This has been getting much better. The AA company is not only willing to back their parts over the last year or so...they quickly make it right when your measurments find something wrong. Very good service.
I am watching a few people right now using their P&C sets having excellent results with them.
If you can find Mahles for your vehicle and the difference in price is slight...get them. Always buy the best you can.
But if you can't find what you need...don't be afraid to call these some of guys and tell them what you need.
My point is that it is 100% incorrect to say that all Chinese pistons are of less quality than anythingelse...just cause they are made in China. That is 100% not true. Ray |
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MoparFreak69 Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2009 Posts: 676
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent point Ray. Its all about Quality control. Nothing more. My LG cell phone is made in China. Its the nicest phone I have ever had. Going by everyone else's logic, its garbage because its made in China. |
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keifernet Samba Search & Rescue
Joined: May 11, 2002 Posts: 19395 Location: Samba Center for Behavioral Science
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Ray as well... QC is not just a problem with Chinese made parts but with just about anything and everything now days....
If you think Mahles are better ( well once upon a time they were, like so much else) then you should realize they are also on the skids...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=377385&highlight=mahle
I have used some sets of AA brand and been happy with them.
There have been and are some other Chinese and Mexican made pistons and cylinders I have seen recently of VERY POOR quality though. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Its not like I am trying to defend China....just that I have come to have a healthy respect for some of the things they do...having met a lot of individual Chinese people in and around several manufacturing sectors.
More than a handful of companies I have worked with have parts or sub-assemblies made in China...and have had to invest heavily in going to China to both train the workers for proper QC with their product and grade raw materials. Once that was acomplished....the parts tend to be first rate enough of the time that if and when you do get a bad part....it should be more properly blamed on the reieving end of the company here in the US for not properly inspecting incoming parts before distributing them.
Why?.....because The vast majority of mechanical parts sub assemblers in the US who have parts made in China...commonly have a full replacement contract with the Chinese companies that they invested QC training and time with.
It goes a little like this: Company A orders 10,000 widgets of very cheap price from company B in China. By contract.....Company A has reciever end inspection time and cost built into the already ridiculously low price.
The agreement is that any defective or out of spec parts are returned to China B at China B cost (or discarded depending on value).....and replaced at China B cost.....including shipping both directions. This is the carrot and stick approach most companies use with Chinese parts manufacturers.
I.E......the better the parts you make, the less replacement and return shipping you eat...and the more you profit.
Also.....other than the pretty high quality parts known to be made by German companies...in Germany....everything else is simply just a foreign part....and are equally good or bad (unknown) in quality until proven otherwise.
With correct piston and cylinder sets virtually unobtanium for my 412.....at some point someone has to try out the only replacement parts available Chinese or otherwise.......or the cars just sit still. If we have a lifelong rule that nothing Chinese or foreign should be trusted...sooner or later...the type 1,2 and 3 parts will start drying up.
ACVW pistons and cylinders are not huge business for any major piston company these days compared to OEM's. What are you going to do when the type 1,2,3 parts start drying up? Ray |
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D.J.K-II Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2009 Posts: 17 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Personal viewpoint;
Anything installed in/on any engine is as reliable as the source. In other words, it is all about the metals used. The quality of the materials is paramount.
Every auto manufacturer runs across this from time to time. Get a bad batch of iron or steel and that part will fail. Engine performance is about much more than mere quality control.
You can have the highest tolerances and the most detailed checklist, but if the metal is junk... |
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Fitz. Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2009 Posts: 362 Location: Montavilla, Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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So, who has the best track record these days? Who makes the nicest stuff? Forget price, who's making the most reliable parts?
I'm going to do my 1500 soon. _________________ Settle down, it's a car. |
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MoparFreak69 Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2009 Posts: 676
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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The jugs and pistons I purchased for my 1600 were AA brand. The cylinders appeared to be cast very nicely without any noticable defects. The pistons fit the bores evenly the entire diameter of the bore. The pistons were machined very nicely as well as the bore itself, very good job on the crosshatching. The wrist pins fit snugly and well into the bores in the pistons. The rings had even end gaps and when first removed from the bores had the gaps evenly spaced from each other. They were coated in a nice coating of heavy oil which protected them from rust and corrosion. I was pleased with the quality and the price was very reasonable. The place I bought them from was selling 1641 jugs for a cheaper price but the quality didnt seem as nice and I was leery of cylinder wall thickess issues. |
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morymob Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007 Posts: 4683 Location: east-tn
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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China may have closed the gap some in the machining part of the parts making but the material they use sucks,example= new ,comple axle with cv's boots and china made. Putted around town for a couple weeks, took a 500+ mi trip and clicking away at below 35 mph afterwards. Removed,returned, located 2- Lobrows and will rebuild my old axle. |
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Bart Dunn Samba Consiglieri
Joined: May 09, 2004 Posts: 2354 Location: Sea level (Mid Atlantic)
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Someone told me the AA stuff is "made" in China and "finished" here in the USA so far as final machining is concerned. No evidence to back that up--just what I was told by a couple people at the big parts places. _________________ Not enough car seats fit into my:
'58 Beetle convertible
'58 Beetle sedan |
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Min ein er et stykke fole Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2009 Posts: 193
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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No matter what you choose..you should completely clean them before you put them in.. _________________ 66
Don't mind the oil spots in your driveway...
That's just HP sweat..
I wanna be sedated |
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19super73 Hardcore Stock Nazi
Joined: October 18, 2007 Posts: 4351 Location: Cité Soleil
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Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:47 am Post subject: |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
didget69 wrote: |
True Mahle Piston/Cylinder sets are quality items; the Chinese sets are best used as examples of what not to do...
bnc |
Not always true at all. The Chinese parts are not examples of bad design...or bad manufacturing equipment or lack of know-how. In fact...most of the Chinese piston companie's manufacturing equipment is far newer and more advanced than virtually any other company that has been around for ages.
The issue is quality control. Some sets are excellent...some not. This has been getting much better. The AA company is not only willing to back their parts over the last year or so...they quickly make it right when your measurments find something wrong. Very good service.
I am watching a few people right now using their P&C sets having excellent results with them.
If you can find Mahles for your vehicle and the difference in price is slight...get them. Always buy the best you can.
But if you can't find what you need...don't be afraid to call these some of guys and tell them what you need.
My point is that it is 100% incorrect to say that all Chinese pistons are of less quality than anythingelse...just cause they are made in China. That is 100% not true. Ray |
You do have a point but many people who rely on their vehicles or don't really want to go through the hassle of redoing a job because of a QC issue, just don't want to take the chance on buying Chinese made parts. It's Russian roulette with the Chinese made stuff moreso than North American made or European. _________________ 1970 Campmobile [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-47260.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1970 Fastback 1600 TL
1971 Doka [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-14845.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1973 Super Beetle
1973 Westfalia [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-31892.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1974 412 Variant
1975 La Grande Bug
1984 Vanagon |
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Gary Person of Interest
Joined: November 01, 2002 Posts: 17069 Location: 127.0.0.1
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Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: |
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19super73 wrote: |
raygreenwood wrote: |
didget69 wrote: |
True Mahle Piston/Cylinder sets are quality items; the Chinese sets are best used as examples of what not to do...
bnc |
Not always true at all. The Chinese parts are not examples of bad design...or bad manufacturing equipment or lack of know-how. In fact...most of the Chinese piston companie's manufacturing equipment is far newer and more advanced than virtually any other company that has been around for ages.
The issue is quality control. Some sets are excellent...some not. This has been getting much better. The AA company is not only willing to back their parts over the last year or so...they quickly make it right when your measurments find something wrong. Very good service.
I am watching a few people right now using their P&C sets having excellent results with them.
If you can find Mahles for your vehicle and the difference in price is slight...get them. Always buy the best you can.
But if you can't find what you need...don't be afraid to call these some of guys and tell them what you need.
My point is that it is 100% incorrect to say that all Chinese pistons are of less quality than anythingelse...just cause they are made in China. That is 100% not true. Ray |
You do have a point but many people who rely on their vehicles or don't really want to go through the hassle of redoing a job because of a QC issue, just don't want to take the chance on buying Chinese made parts. It's Russian roulette with the Chinese made stuff moreso than North American made or European. |
Agreed. I stated such an example here, of my recent experience with u-joints. I'm tired of cheap-asses making excuse for Chinese garbage and ignoring example after example (ie lead paint, tainted pet food, etc) _________________ West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) |
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