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dune limo
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| You need a bus 1700 or 1800 flywheel with the same centre bearing, make sure your gearbox has a throw out bearing sleeve that the throw out bearing slids back and forth on, some early box's did not have this |
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superman73
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Joined: December 21, 2006
Posts: 2032
Location: Crystal Springs, Mississippi
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superman73
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2006
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Location: Crystal Springs, Mississippi
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didget69
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004
Posts: 4927
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| superman73 wrote: |
| also, why is the porsche 1.8 liter flywheel different? |
914 flywheel has ring gear located in different location on flywheel
Chuck - the info you need on flywheels, etc., can be found on
http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tech/flywheel.htm
http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tech/clutch.htm
But Tuna's site is not currently working - he covers ALL the info to the questions you're asking on adapting a T4 motor to a T1 transaxle... search the Samba forums; the info is on here about drilling out a T2 Bus flywheels' center bore to add in a roller bearing from the center of a VW T1 Gland nut -
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...p;start=20
bnc
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I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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superman73
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Joined: December 21, 2006
Posts: 2032
Location: Crystal Springs, Mississippi
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didget69
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004
Posts: 4927
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| superman73 wrote: |
| i found a 215mm flywheel. so i would also need a 215mm pressure plate and clutch, right? or would the 914 clutch disc work? or the type 1 pressure plate and clutch disc? |
http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tech/clutch.htm
bnc
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I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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superman73
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2006
Posts: 2032
Location: Crystal Springs, Mississippi
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superman73
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2006
Posts: 2032
Location: Crystal Springs, Mississippi
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: |
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i finally got the right 215mm flywheel and pressure plate, found out the engine is a GA code 2.0 liter  . im having the webber carbs built right now and ive already mounted the flywheel and set end play. hopefully ill be driving by spring.
_________________
Chuck
Jesus Saves
70 deluxe bus
74 ghia 1776 dual carb
67 manx clone
various other parts cars.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=228364&highlight=superman73sb+bellsouth |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| superman73 wrote: |
| i finally got the right 215mm flywheel and pressure plate, found out the engine is a GA code 2.0 liter . im having the webber carbs built right now and ive already mounted the flywheel and set end play. hopefully ill be driving by spring. |
Does it have 3 bolt intake manifolds or 4 bolt ones. 3 bolt indicates it is a 2.0 Porsche, 4 bolt means it is a VW 2.0 that came from a bus. Different cams and heads. VW has less output.
Best choice for flywheel is Kennedy or cip1.com
Both offer a new flywheel that is for a standard 200mm clutch. Many choices of 200mm pressureplates and disks. pilot bearing installed.
If using a stock VW bus flywheel, the pilot bearing has to be removed from the crank and relocated into the flywheel.
FROM TUNACAN
Type 4 Clutches
This page was last updated Tuesday, September 15, 2009
Pressure Plate | Disc | Recommendations
I urge that along with this article, you should also read my tech article on flywheels. These two articles go hand in hand and you will need to read both to make a decision about clutches and flywheels.
Pressure plate
Once you've got a fire breathing Type 4 with all of the goodies on, you'll want to use that horsepower. This is the job of the clutch. The clutch choice is important, as too light duty a clutch setup and you'll warp both the clutch and the flywheel, and you'll go no where. Too heavy a clutch is hard on the driver and the engine/transaxle mounts, and the rest of the drivetrain.
It is critical to realize to realize when dealing with clutches, that are two different styles of clutches for the Type 4. This relates to the flywheels in that there is a 914 clutch setup and a VW clutch setup. Unless you plan on running a 914 or 911 transaxle in your project, you will need to run a VW style clutch.
The VW clutches were available in 4 different diameters: 200mm, 210mm, 215mm and 228mm. The 200mm is the same pressure plate and clutch disc as a Type 1 200mm, so any of the high performance pressure plates and discs could be used. But keep in mind that a larger diamter clutch does not require as much spring pressure to stay connected. In other words you can have a softer pedal with more clamping power than a stock 200mm by using a 215mm or 228mm stock clutch. If you decide to use the larger clutches (210-228), make sure your transaxle is setup for the later style throw out bearing with the sleeve mounted in the transaxle. The pressure plates are only available without the ring in the center. I was told that Carter's Gearbox sells an adaptor that converts an earlier transaxle to use the later style throw out.
Disc
When it comes to clutch discs, there isn't much choice. For the larger size (210mm-228mm) the selections are pretty limited to the stock discs. The only things to keep in mind is selecting a rigid vs. a sprung disc and the quality of the disc. The sprung disc features springs in the clutch disc that makes engagement smoother and relieves the drivetrain the shock of the abrupt engagement. The problem is that with "spirited" driving the springs can fail. As to the quality issue, a well built disc, from a recognized brand can provide thousands of miles of spirited driving. Get a low quality disc and wait for the inevitable failure.
You'll notice that drag race cars will use three puck clutch discs. Three puck discs can be very violent and has been known to rip apart transaxle mounts. The 3-puck disc does not have a gradual bite, it is either engaged or disengaged. So on the street there's no riding the clutch in traffic or having a smooth take offs. This violent engagement/disengagement is also hard on the engine and transaxle. 3-puck discs will require regular flywheel resurfacing to maintain a flat, unwarped engaging surface.
Recommendations
As for recommendations, it all matters upon which transaxle you are planning on running and what state of tune your motor will be in. For the average Type 1 transaxle and a stock-mild 2.0, I would run either the 200mm with a Stage 1 Kennedy pressure plate with Berg Dual Friction solid center disc, or a stock 210/215 clutch. The 210/215 will probably require the bell housing of the transaxle to be clearanced. The 210/215 would probably be the cost effective option, as the original 200mm flywheels are difficult to find, the KEP 200mm flywheel is expensive, and the 210/215 clutch pressure plate/disc is more expensive.
If you plan on running a Bus IRS transaxle (002 or 091), go for the big one and run the 228mm pressure plate and disc. If you've converted your car to use the Bus IRS transaxle, chances are you going to doing some rough things with the car and will have a serious engine motivating it. I don't recall right now what's available for high performance pressure plates and discs for the 228mm, but make sure you buy something that will take the horsepower you anticipate on making. Quality parts will mean you've got control for that fire breathing monster of a Type 4 behind you.
Finally, if you are building a racing vehicle of some sort, like a drag racing or sand dragging, use a high performance 228mm pressure and a 3 puck clutch disc. This setup will give you the maximum holding power available and will get you to the finish line. I wouldn't recommend running this setup on a street car or dune cruiser.
FLYWHEELS
The flywheels used on Type 4 engines can be classified into two different categories:VW and Porsche. The Porsche 914/912E used a different flywheel than the VW cars (411, 412, and Bus). The Volkswagens used four different flywheels, each having a different diameter clutch disc and pressure plate. The very early 411s used a 200mm clutch, thus it is compatible with the popular aftermarket Type 1 clutch discs and pressure plates. Next came the 210mm, 215mm, and the 228mm flywheels.
The 914/912E flywheel had a 215mm diameter face and used a unique pressure plate and disc to mate it to the Porsche transaxle. This flywheel differs from the VW flywheel in that the starter ring gear is offset differently and will cause a VW starter not to engage properly. This flywheel will be necessary only if the car you will be installing the Type 4 into uses a Porsche transaxle, such as the 901 or 915. The rest of this tech article will cover using a Type 4 engine with a Type 1 transaxle, as you can use the stock Porsche starter to finish the Porsche setup.
The Type 4 200mm flywheel was only available on the 1969 VW 411. This car was only available in Europe in limited numbers, so finding this flywheel is quite difficult. Due to this scarcity of the 200mm flywheel, Kennedy Engineering, the makers of the famed KEP pressure plates and adaptors, offers a 200mm flywheel for the Type 4s. By using this flywheel, or the original 200mm, a Type 4 engine will slide right into a standard 12V Type 1-3 transmission. These flywheels also give the engine builder a large variety of proven pressure plates and clutch discs. A standard 12-volt Type 1 starter meshes up perfectly, with the self-supporting Bosch SR17X being my favorite.
The Type 4 200mm, the 210mm, and the 215mm are all the same outside diameter and are basically identical with the exception of the clutch face diameter. The starter ring tooth count is the same as a 12V/200mm Type 1 (130 teeth). The 228mm flywheel has the same starter ring, but the raised portion on the outer edge of the flywheel makes it larger overall and requires the use of a self supporting starter.
As the diameter of the pressure plate increases, the issue of pressure plate height becomes an issue. The larger pressure plates are more likely to have clearance issues in the bellhousing where the housing slopes from the input shaft to the outer lip. It is here that you will run into problems with the 228mm flywheel. It is possible to clearance safely for the 215mm, but the 228mm leaves the bellhousing quite thin.
Now let's take a look at the issues of flywheel selections and the best options.
Forged vs. Cast
Probably the one weakness of the Type 4 flywheel is the fact that most Type 4 flywheels are cast iron. A forged flywheel, like the one used on the Type 1, is much stronger, and for organizations like the NHRA, are often necessary. The Type 1 200mm flywheel was forged from the factory, so it's a non-issue for the Type 1 crowd.
A careful reader will notice that I said that most Type 4 flywheels are cast; as there are a few forged options. The 228mm from the Wasserboxer, the 200mm 411, and the Kennedy Engineering 200mm are all forged options for the Type 4 engine builder.
But this is only of concern to the few Type 4 engines being built. For 99% of the street engines out there, the cast flywheel does the job quite well. It's rugged and easily obtainable from a manual transmission Bus or 411/412.
Pilot Bearing modification
All Type 4 engines have the pilot shaft (also called the input shaft) bearing in the crankshaft. There is no pilot shaft bearing installed in automatic transmission engines. The input shaft of the transaxle must be extended to reach the pilot shaft bearing if you are using a Type 1 transaxle. The input shaft of a type 1 trans is shorter to accomidate the pilot sahft bearing in the gland nut. When a short type 1 input shaft is mated to a type 4 engine, the input shaft falls short of the mark and simply rests in the hole in the Type 4 flywheel. To "fix" this condition, remove the old Type 4 pilot shaft bearing from the flywheel. Next, purchase a new Type 4 pilot shaft bearing (this bearing is also the exact same one used in the Type 1 gland nut, so you can use a replacement one from those too). Take the flywheel and the new bearing to a competent machinist. Have the flywheel center hole enlarged so that the new pilot shaft bearing may be PRESSED into position. It should be positioned so that it's flush on the "clutch" side of the flywheel. The thickness at the flywheel is about 0.400" so the new pilot shaft bearing will stick out the backside and end up partially in the crankshaft. Thats why the old one must be removed. A light dab of wheel bearing grease finishes the job.
Just as a sidenote: the KEP flywheel already has this modification done to it, so it's a bolt on solution.
5-dowel modification
Much like the common practice of adding dowels to a Type 1 crankshaft, some tuners have found that adding a dowel between each bolt hole that mounts the flywheel to the crank aids in keeping the flywheel attached, even under severe use. Some tuners feel that this modification makes the center of flywheel too weak, and thusly do not recommend it.
If you are building a Type 4 for drag racing or off road racing purposes, I suggest that you look into this matter and make the decision for yourself. Talk to your engine builder or to your machine for their opinion.
Lightening
A common sight on modified Type 1 engines is a lightened flywheel. Lightened flywheels are usually used on cars used for drag racing or for road racing. Most street engines would be better off with the stock weight to retain long bearing life and higher gas mileage.
Lightening a flywheel decreases the rotating mass of the crank assembly, and results in fast acceleration. Of course, less momentum is stored as a result, and it results in fast rpm drops when you make off the flywheel. This will also result in decreased fuel mileage, so knowing how you are going to drive your car will be best determining if lightening is for you.
Commonly, a lightened flywheel weighs anywhere from 12-13 lbs; any less than this and the engine suffers with bearing failure. It's is important to remove the weight from the outer edge of the flywheel, closest to the starter gear. If you remove too much weight from behind the clutch surface closer to the center, flywheel warpage can result.
Recommendations
For the average street Type 4 engine with a Type 1 transaxle, I recommend using any of the 200mm, 210mm or 215mm VW flywheels. They will all slide into a 12V bellhousing with little to no clearancing. The 228mm is out as far as the type 1 bellhousing is concerned. The pressure plate will require too much clearancing , could sacrifice the structural integrity of the transaxle case. Leave the 228mm for the Bus people.
If you envision your car hitting the drag strip or seeing time in the Baja 1000, it's advised that you look to a forged flywheel. The forged flywheel is necessary according to NHRA rules and it is a lot stronger. If you are using a Type 1 transaxle, go with the KEP 200mm flywheel, as it allows the use of the common KEP high performance pressure plates to regain the extra clamping force.
If you are using a Bus IRS transaxle, then go with a Wasserboxer 228mm forged flywheel. It will give you the large clamping of the 228mm clutch, along with a softer pedal and the strength of the forged material.
As for lightening, this is a personal preference. Some people like the instant throttle response that a lightened flywheel provides, others prefer to have the full weight to keep the engine from dropping rpms quickly when backing off the throttle. If you do lighten the flywheel, remember go no lighter than 12 lbs.
An interesting bit of trivia: the wasserboxer engine, the watercooled Vanagon flat 4, shares the same bolt pattern for the flywheel. This means that a Wasserboxer flywheel is the same as a late model 2.0L Transporter. This also means that a Wasserboxer could use a Type 4 200mm flywheel, allowing a wasserboxer to bolt up to a Type 1 transaxle.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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superman73
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Joined: December 21, 2006
Posts: 2032
Location: Crystal Springs, Mississippi
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| superman73 wrote: |
| its the 3 bolt intake heads. the motor i pulled myself from a 74 porsche 914. i bought a used flywheel off ebay. its a 215mm. |
3 bolt is good. As you know engines get swapped all the time. Just because you removed it from a 914 does not mean it is a 914 engine. However 3 bolt confirms it.
I am running a 3 bolt in my Beetle with bus injection. Very powerful. My blue Manx has a bus 2.0 with the bus injection. Lots of power. You will be happy with the results.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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superman73
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2006
Posts: 2032
Location: Crystal Springs, Mississippi
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:57 am Post subject: |
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i was thinking it was a 1.8 until i found the engine code GA and that confirmed it was a 914 2.0 . the engine in my 72 914 was a W code 1.7. i also have a W code case that was inside the 74 914 when i bought it along with heads, crank, lots of new parts, jugs, pistons etc... ready to build, but has sat in the car awhile and the crank has surface rust. i may have it turned later so i can build that engine for a future project. im running a 72 002 3rib in the buggy.
_________________
Chuck
Jesus Saves
70 deluxe bus
74 ghia 1776 dual carb
67 manx clone
various other parts cars.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=228364&highlight=superman73sb+bellsouth |
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superman73
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Joined: December 21, 2006
Posts: 2032
Location: Crystal Springs, Mississippi
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eaterofdog
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Joined: June 18, 2010
Posts: 294
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:10 am Post subject: |
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I really like the T4 in my buggy. Getting a good exhaust setup is an issue though.
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| wythac wrote: |
| It's not like you have to drive it to work on Monday. |
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superman73
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Posts: 2032
Location: Crystal Springs, Mississippi
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eaterofdog
Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2010
Posts: 294
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:42 am Post subject: |
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The off the shelf stuff was way too expensive for me. A couple grand or more. I ended up using EMW headers with a modified Bursch 914 collector.
EMW headers, requires some grinding.
Bursch collector, extended 3 inches at the flanges.
Final.
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| wythac wrote: |
| It's not like you have to drive it to work on Monday. |
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superman73
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Joined: December 21, 2006
Posts: 2032
Location: Crystal Springs, Mississippi
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superman73
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eaterofdog
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Joined: June 18, 2010
Posts: 294
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:35 am Post subject: |
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I think I spent $450 total. The headers were 200, used bursch was 100, welding was 150. The motor runs way stronger with the headers and equal length collector.
The EMW headers needed the bolt ears grinded down so they wouldn't bottom out. Not a big deal but has to be done.
Tangerine Racing has some pre built exhausts. Pricey though.
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| wythac wrote: |
| It's not like you have to drive it to work on Monday. |
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aquamanx
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Location: Texas
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