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Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec
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AndyBees
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: DK performance graph for gearing mod Reply with quote

AndyBees wrote:
Notice the gear ratio of each gear ... the Ring and Pinion is the DK 4.57:1, 091 tranny.

This graph shows the RPM and MPH for each gear. And, you can see the RPM and MPH drop at each shift. Start at the bottom with 1st gear and look at each gear's curve. Also, notice that I have used a little different top RPM for each gear over the previous (1st-2900, 2nd-3000, 3rd-3200 and a cruising rpm of about 2840 at 65 mph). The TDI engine will rev easily to 4000 and red-lines at 4500.

Notice there is a 1500 RPM drop when shifting to 2nd gear. Then there is a 1400 RPM drop shifting to 3rd gear. And, finally, there is only an 1100 RPM drop shifting to 4th gear.

With peak torque at about 1900 RPMs in a TDI engine, 2100 RPM on the bottom end of 4th gear will not be too bad. It should pull away fairly good.

The data in this graph is based on using 205/75/15 tires. If a few more RPMs are needed, 14 inch tires will bring the RPMs up to about 3000 at 65 mph.

[img]
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This is an update to put the imagine (graph) back up. It originally was in PhotoBucket but is gone now. Also, the tire size I'm actually running is 215/75/15 which drops the RPMs a little below what's shown in the graph. On the road is about as projected as well.
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Last edited by AndyBees on Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:41 am; edited 2 times in total
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tschroeder0
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

just my two cents...I just acquired turbo bostig powered syncro AW. My initial drive was about 1800 miles from Seattle to Boulder. The van was fully loaded with extra stuff for the van. The latest adventure was from Boulder to Wolf Creek to snowboard. Both drives were over many passes and through very windy areas.
I cant fully speak to the stock bostig, but with the turbo the stock gearing does very well, in general third gets used a lot when on med grades where you cant cruise up in 4th. In 4th you can cruise nicely at about 65-70 @~3700rpm. In all,it drives quite well.
I think messing with stock would end up with as many negatives as positives.
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AndyBees
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

tschroeder0 wrote:
just my two cents...I just acquired turbo bostig powered syncro AW. My initial drive was about 1800 miles from Seattle to Boulder. The van was fully loaded with extra stuff for the van. The latest adventure was from Boulder to Wolf Creek to snowboard. Both drives were over many passes and through very windy areas.
I cant fully speak to the stock bostig, but with the turbo the stock gearing does very well, in general third gets used a lot when on med grades where you cant cruise up in 4th. In 4th you can cruise nicely at about 65-70 @~3700rpm. In all,it drives quite well.
I think messing with stock would end up with as many negatives as positives.



I agree, but depending on the gearing changes made, there can be a win-win.

But, please note, this is an old Thread going back to 2010. I got in on the conversation to share my findings (on paper) at the time and long before on the ground experience. And, I do (and did) realize this is a Bostig-Zetec thread.

Anyway, the gearing upgrade for a TDI is almost imperative unless the installer puts in some mighty soft motor mounts, good sound deadening and Intake silencer. Otherwise, cruising at 3700 RPMs will be rather noisy.

I'm presently working with a friend who recently purchased a Westy with the Ford Zetec. He's not satisfied with the power. So, I've been researching to see what's going on with power improvements and stumbled onto this old Thread not realizing I had commented in here so long ago.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

Since this thread is about Zetec conversions I'll stick to that. The power band of the Zetec works pretty well with the stock WBX gearing. The engine makes a lot more total power. But most of the extra power of this conversion is in the upper rpms so gearing things much taller can make the vehicle as slow at times as it was before with the stock engine. If you have a well running Zetec and wish for more power a simple way to get it is to LOWER the gearing. That way you are deeper into the power increase at the same road speeds as before. Since the Zetec happily runs at higher rpms and has a higher rpm limit you can use more power more of the time by lowering the gearing.

For people who have added much taller tires and dropped the engine rpm below the desired power level this can be adjusted for by lowering the gearing.

Mark
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AndyBees
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

So, there's a possibility the Westy my friend recently purchased with the Zetec engine could have taller gearing in the transmission. Could very well be why it's sluggish on hills, assuming the engine is otherwise in tune and okay.

He previously owned a Westy with the 2.2 Subie engine. I'm not sure if he's comparing the two or if he has a real issue.

Edit: Yep, and since he and I are conversing via e-mail, tire size has not been discussed. He could very well have tall 15" tires and wheels.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

Andy, maybe ask your friend what rpm he is shifting at? He may not be taking advantage of the power band on the Zetec.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
Since this thread is about Zetec conversions I'll stick to that. The power band of the Zetec works pretty well with the stock WBX gearing. The engine makes a lot more total power. But most of the extra power of this conversion is in the upper rpms so gearing things much taller can make the vehicle as slow at times as it was before with the stock engine. If you have a well running Zetec and wish for more power a simple way to get it is to LOWER the gearing. That way you are deeper into the power increase at the same road speeds as before. Since the Zetec happily runs at higher rpms and has a higher rpm limit you can use more power more of the time by lowering the gearing.


I know this thread is talking about manual transmissions, but I just wanted to pipe in about automatics and Zetecs: Marks' post above rings true for the autos. The Zetec is most powerful and efficient from 3500 and 4500 RPM in my experience--and this is a great cruising RPM range for highways with the automatic and the Zetec.

I've given carful thought to installing a different R&P (the only way to "regear" an automatic) but have decided against it for now, as I have learned the stock gearing is so well suited to the Zetec upgrade.

We now return to our regularly scheduled manual transmission discussion.

kourt
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

Shifting at a higher RPM isn't the answer it's a excuse. Shifting at 5000 buzzes the crap out of the van, you guys are driving the thing like your are at the drag strip . The torque curve is totally wrong, down shifting on a 5% grade is ridiculous. Running any tire larger than a 25" will be nothing but grief on hills. With a Syncro with 27" tires the ride on the highway is not relaxing, anticipating hills and anticipating traffic makes the ride un-enjoyable, 4th gear at 3800 is 65mph, with the power curve starting at 4200 I going 80 mph ( starting to out run the brakes) and when I hit an incline the rpms drop to 3500. So I need a running start of above 85mph to get up medium inclines or at least to hold my RPM, and if it's a long one I'm in third and the cars I just passed at the bottom of the hill are now passing me.

now your going to say "get rid of the 27's" , I did pop the 25's on and it was worst, the motor was screaming and I wasn't going anywhere.

There has to be a way to develop more power between 3000-4000 rpm, whether it's a blower, turbo, from reading cams aren't going to do it.
It's too expensive to change the gearing in the Syncros so that is out.
I'm doing research on a blower from OMEX which will push the HP to around 220.
We'll have to see what Bostig comes up with for ADDERS

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

tschroeder0 wrote:
just my two cents...I just acquired turbo bostig powered syncro AW. My initial drive was about 1800 miles from Seattle to Boulder. The van was fully loaded with extra stuff for the van. The latest adventure was from Boulder to Wolf Creek to snowboard. Both drives were over many passes and through very windy areas.
I cant fully speak to the stock bostig, but with the turbo the stock gearing does very well, in general third gets used a lot when on med grades where you cant cruise up in 4th. In 4th you can cruise nicely at about 65-70 @~3700rpm. In all,it drives quite well.
I think messing with stock would end up with as many negatives as positives.


Thank you for you first hand experience.
I too have driven a Bostig with your setup.
It was awesome.
I dont have any issues with the naturally aspirated version either.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

Bassyaks wrote:
Shifting at a higher RPM isn't the answer it's a excuse. Shifting at 5000 buzzes the crap out of the van, you guys are driving the thing like your are at the drag strip . The torque curve is totally wrong, down shifting on a 5% grade is ridiculous.


Sounds like you should get a pickup truck and a camper instead of a vanagon honestly. Shifting and gearing are exactly the answer in the vanagon. It's how the vanagon was designed. That's why you start out at a 4.86 rear end stock... even a 4 banger wrangler is only at 4.11... why? Because moving a light truck with 90-100hp engine is nearly impossible without great mechanical advantage.

Going zetec means you get more power and torque everywhere in the rev band marginally, and then when the wbxer tanks in the 4500 range it keeps on climbing in power and adds another 1000 rpm to the rev band (pencil in the area green if it makes you feel better) That means it has more capability in every gear both in terms of top speed and acceleration. You get all that, and it's not going to grenade at those higher RPMS, and it's easier to keep it running in the first place.

The mistake in the very first post is that you need to rev to "get" to the same hp/tq, which is false UNLESS you're not running right, or perhaps in Steve's case the throttle is demonstrably not opening all the way in a log he sent. The next test BTW Steve is a KOEO log of opening the throttle by foot, then walking around and opening it by hand then send me that log.

The Rotrex puts the power in the wrong place, and is meant for race applications, is hugely expensive, and will only complicate problems. If you can't get a Bostig conversion to run as it should, you have no business with any power adders. In fact if you can't get a Bostig installed, you should really question if a vanagon is the right vehicle for you, it doesn't get much easier. Children have done the install (10 year old is the youngest, along with high schoolers)

Saying that people here are driving like they are at the drags strip is wrong, they are driving as the setup is designed 5k isn't a problem, if you're van is really buzzy at 5k you did something else wrong. Track it down. For all I know you aren't even running the listed muffler anymore, you definately threw away the mount washers which means you likely overtorqued the engine mounts too... anyhow the list goes on. 6k-7k yeah ok fine, uneeded, but add oiling plates and do it occasionally you'll never even noticed a decrease in life.

I agree that power should be higher, which is one of the reasons I chose this engine 10+ years ago, as it can make more. But getting those adders to also not impact reliability is difficult to the point that it took some of the worlds largest companies decades to achieve it, my solutions took less time since I'm exploiting that work.. but it's not common practice to consider reliability in aftermarket development.

That said, the base power and torque are a good match for the vans, and give one more than before while increasing reliability and while lowering cost to maintain, and making it simple enough that DIYers can actually achieve those goals consistently. That alone is not an easy thing to achieve, no other conversion has done it.

Jim Akiba
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

bostig wrote:
Going zetec means you get more power and torque everywhere in the rev band marginally, and then when the wbxer tanks in the 4500 range it keeps on climbing in power and adds another 1000 rpm to the rev band (pencil in the area green if it makes you feel better) That means it has more capability in every gear both in terms of top speed and acceleration. You get all that, and it's not going to grenade at those higher RPMS, and it's easier to keep it running in the first place.

.......

That said, the base power and torque are a good match for the vans, and give one more than before while increasing reliability and while lowering cost to maintain, and making it simple enough that DIYers can actually achieve those goals consistently. That alone is not an easy thing to achieve, no other conversion has done it.

Jim Akiba


This stuff is very well-said! The higher RPM (= longer gears) is a definite plus.

I'm going to add that
- the more power you put thru this tiny transaxle is likely to reduce it's lifespan
- 130-150HP is optimum and perhaps a good maximum.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

Manual trans ratings are typically measured in ft-pounds, and 220 is the max for the vanagon. Found 180-200 is a good mix of normal car-like drivability without destroying the trans or hugely impacting it's operating life.

It's a good point.. the reality is that the power/weight ratio of the vanagons was unbelievably low as designed, and increasing it to even something like that of a toyota corolla is difficult without big impacts to reliability of powertrain/driveline parts... the real answer is to get power up until you encroach on margin of safety of the rest of the system and keep weight down.. but Americans really don't understand that concept well. Adding power tends to be how we want to approach it regardless of, or sometimes even in light of, negative consequence.

Jim Akiba
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

I've had my Bostig installed for two weeks now. It's transformed my Vanagon experience. Driving the van extended distances is no longer an energy depleting experience because it comfortably keeps up with traffic on the interstate or highway and I don't have to think about managing momentum or gear changes.

This is with stock transmission ratios and 215/60 R16 tires. I'm shopping for tires and believe that changing ratios (larger tires) would compromise that gains I've gotten with the Bostig (even though I'd like to go a bit bigger for other reasons).
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Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

"two weeks" your still seeing Blue, don't do the tire change, or stay around 26.5"
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

thanks Jim for the thorough run down of how you see the bostig's place in the van world.
It matches my experiences pretty much exactly after driving my van with a Bostig for the last many months over nothing but mountainous terrain.
My thought as I am driving is that it is very close driving wise to the stock engine in that it is a reving engine, not a big torquey engine, only much better because you have more rrpm range and the power is deeper in that range. Also, after so many long drives over many passes I always smile when i stop somewhere and the engine is just purring away with a rock solid idle. Imhave now put on about 4,000 miles since I bought the van. All of those miles are hard driving, not cruising. I have averaged 19-21mpg and used no oil.
I appreciate the dedication to the whole thing and the connundrum with adding power. I would like to know more about what possible failures you were worried about over time that were deemed unacceptable with the turbo set up. So far I have really enjoyed driving the one I have.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

bostig wrote:
Adding power tends to be how we want to approach it regardless of, or sometimes even in light of, negative consequence.


That's because we THINK, at the time of "over-engine-ing", that "we are Vanagon drivers....there's no hurry, life is the journey, not the destination. etc etc etc I'm not racing I'm going camping or hiking."

Then when you get that extra power, all is forgotten and we use it more often than we think, because it's wonderful, effortless, quiet. We dust off Corollas at every stoplight going easy on the clutch, but simply keep up with the moms in minivans. We don't refer to that as "drag racing" but thats how the transaxle would describe it (if asked). Each gear runs 25% longer, it's so much more pleasurable to drive (but THAT is precisely where the trans is overloaded, many times daily.) And sustained 65-70 MPH, on long, slight freeway uphills too - what the heck - is this ACTUALLY uphill? Except notice you're quickly gaining on that WBX ahead that can only muster 53MPH.

Overloaded parts shed fine metal dust, what the heck ELSE can they do? The trans fluid becomes contaminated, but we don't look at the oil, because nobody does THAT. It's no fun, the filler plug is behind the shift rod, we have not developed efficient methods to change trans oil, and it stinks too. And not even the motivation to so much as "develop a system to monitor the condition of the gear oil condition".

We THINK high end gear oil is the way to solve (or perhaps mitigate) the problem. Throw $$ at it, and talk oil brands like fancy shoes or handbags, NEVER considering that clean FLAPS GL-5 oil (often) could be FAR superior to $100 specialty oil that's contaminated by 8,000 miles then run onwards (as a grinding paste) to 15,000 miles (or 30k). After spending $70-$100 for gear oil you can't just DUMP it at first sight of metal dust, can you? Gotta run it for awhile, and FORCE the economy of "getting what you paid for". Or so you think...

And if your "rebuild" was substandard to begin with (as I suspect MANY are) your transaxle grinding paste develops even sooner. Or a GOOD rebuild, using parts that could easily survive another 100,000 miles of 80HP is now getting repeated doses of 130 or 150HP many times every day......and begins to create the grinding paste in your transaxle.

Someday when larger capacity driveline "conversions" are commonplace we'll reminisce about the un-suitability of the 091/094 transaxle "back in the day". But that's several years away and currently the only option is to "think good thoughts". Or drill.baby.drill, and filtering (or changing) MIGHT add a cushion of safety. We don't really know yet but there are NO mods to enlarge shafts & bearings, gears.

It's no surprise. That's how all "modifications" go. There's always a negative consequence and it's always always overlooked "in light of the benefits". Eventually it's solved by "converting" the proper component (a larger transaxle) after years of developement. It's coming (I hope), but until then, tell yourself "I won't really drive it any different, cuz the trans is still the original undersized unit, and that should work, right?" I'm gonna try that for now (plus oiling, cooling, filtering, monitoring).

------Howzzat for a soapbox? Much wordier than Jim's style but that's a gift I don't have. It may be obvious I've been traumatized by transaxles and currently obsessed with them, turning over every rock in search of minor improvements....
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

There was another Vanagon owner that was riddled with transmission and engine conversion issues, repeatedly.....also spreading fear Laughing
Funny, he enjoyed soap boxes too.
Neither own a Bostig conversion BTW.

The best part about soap boxes would be when the annoyance steps down and we have quiet to enjoy our very reliable and extremely faithful converted Bostig vans.

As far as gearing goes, stay stock, no need to open up the trans for this conversion.

Take what you read here with a grain of salt.
Some, don't own this conversion, others, shouldn't have purchased it...and you get negatives from them.
The rest of us are very happy, period.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
There was another Vanagon owner that was riddled with transmission and engine conversion issues, repeatedly.....also spreading fear Laughing
Funny, he enjoyed soap boxes too.
Neither own a Bostig conversion BTW.

The best part about soap boxes would be when the annoyance steps down and we have quiet to enjoy our very reliable and extremely faithful converted Bostig vans.

As far as gearing goes, stay stock, no need to open up the trans for this conversion.

Take what you read here with a grain of salt.
Some, don't own this conversion, others, shouldn't have purchased it...and you get negatives from them.
The rest of us are very happy, period.


Wait a minute, is this an attempt to get a few licks in in case Jim was inclined to reply to me, or heaven forbid, Question agree Question with something I wrote?
Insyncro I wonder how many members buy into your "hush-ups"? I've come to suspect a hush-up whenever you add Exclamation period Exclamation

Transaxle problems are real, and important to engine conversion owners, abnd theres a LOT of them.
If you have issues please take it up directly with your customers, the forum deserves the right discuss it openly. If anyone agrees with this please say so I can't be the only one who writes this (otherwise I will be the only one). How about Mods?

I think 130HP is a perfect, sensible, conservative in comparison "over-engine" for a Vanagon transaxle. Members WANT to over-engine their vanagons and will do so against any opposition. I read of lots of happy Bostig owners, and can't recall any dissatisfied, or maybe wasn't paying attention. The only dissatisfaction I read/hear about is those who have to wait too long for the next group. But they shouldn't hide their heads in the sand over the transaxle discussion.

Agreed the subject says "Gearing" and my sopabox was not "Gearing" but Jim touched on transaxle lifespan, an issue near and dear to my heart. Cool I hope others are not so inconvenienced (...which Insyncro used the word "annoyance").
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

No need for the soap box pollutant here.
Move along please.
Go and enjoy your SC Subaru and 5 time rebuilt transmission.
Neither of which have anything to do with the Bostic Zetec conversion.

We, Bostig converters, are just fine as a group and don't experience your issues.

You do not have Bostig experience and in many other threads you ask posters doing as you are doing here, to start there own thread.

Please heed your own advice.

Have true Bostig experience when you try and sound like an expert.

From all of your personal threads, it may be best for you to try and finish your projects and have a running and driving van.
Than go and use it Exclamation
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9518
Location: Western WA
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Question: Transaxle Gearing and Bostig-Zetec Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
to start there own thread


....there there now, it's not that bad. Cool

Insyncro I don't get the impression that you really understand transaxles (on the inside), and if that's the case perhaps you're the one to bow out of the conversation if its outside of your expertise. I've been on a pretty steep learning curve and have gained a few insights along the way, and perhaps may have something useful to offer the forum (....if not brevity....sorry for that).

I could see myself having a Bostig conversion. But at the time the 173HP had my eye and back in 2009 I think it was the first group and it was months away. Ground clearance was not yet solved. I suppose more power coulda delivered my van to the repair shops sooner but a Bostig coulda tore up my tranny rebuilds too.

I kinda think the BEST way to prevent "over-engine-ing" the vanagon is to create a compelling, perfect kit, with sensible HP (about 130). Which Bostig has done.

insyncro wrote:
it may be best for you to try and finish your projects and have a running and driving van.
Than go and use it Exclamation


Exactly what I was thinking than you go and write it..... At least we are thinking the same thing for once.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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