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Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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 Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Here's some too, fresh off the press . . .
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EMISSIONS EQUIPMENT
Most of these systems are no longer mandated. You want to disable some that pose a risk to your engine's health, and you
want to keep those that work. This diagram will help you identify any unknown wiring and switches and plumbing that have
managed to hang through the years with your engine. Perhaps it will help answer what that strange sensor is languishing
over the battery (yes, that would be the 4th gear only vacuum advance temperature sensor #25), or the switch on the '74
cooling flap shaft that shuts off the EGR when the engine is not fully warmed up (#16)
Evaporative Charcoal Canister and hoses (Diagram 4 #4, #8, #11, #12) and particularly the tee #11, should be intact and functional.
This system serves up some nice fuel fumes when starting off after a sit. Better that the engine enjoy them, than the cabin full of your friends and the dogs.
Crankcase Ventilation is a good system to have. The crankcase breather hose should be inspected for kinks and deterioration. If you have lousy rubber it will sag shut. Then someone will tell you that you need an overhaul because oil is blowing out your dipstick. The breather box should be cleaned at least once every ten years or so. The '72-'74 system is passive but effective.
Preheat Intake Air (Diagram 2 E), keep! Can be checked by applying vacuum to the end of the hose at the thermostatic switch on the underside of the right air horn. Follow this hose to the valve itself on the air cleaner/filter intake. It should close off the fresh air under vacuum. The thermostatic switch in the right air horn should "sing" quietly when
warm. Your mixture reference hose's day job is to provide vacuum to the preheater when intake air is under about 55*.
Your air filter intake fresh air supply should be hosed in from just above the battery. It is a big diameter (38mm?) pleated black paper/aluminum hose.
Thermostat and flaps, keep. These are engineered to work with your chokes, enrichment device, fast idle time, and EGR temperature switch, and they really help the oil from getting contaminated with cold combustion byproducts that encourage sludge. Make it all happen as the factory designed it. As thermostat supply dries up, we need to create a
robust idiot-proof alternative.
The EGR is a potentially dangerous system if it develops fresh air leaks. Exhaust is inert and "cool" to the engine. It has been asked to recirculate to cool down combustion, but if there are any leaks in the EGR plumbing or valves, oxygen gets in there and heats up the combustion due a lean mixture that burns your exhaust valves. I disabled my EGR in 1980,
lugged the inlet to the balance pipe right at that "Vac Valve" (for '74 only) on the Diagram 4, sealed the EGR valves at the vacuum nipples (Diagram 4 #21) in case the diaphragms should ever leak, and blocked off the muffler's EGR flange.
My last California smog test NOX emissions were well-within specs without it. If your system is intact all the way to the muffler, you can test the EGR valves for proper closing by pulling a hose and applying vacuum to the end of the valve. It should slow the engine down, then recover when you stop applying vacuum. Make sure your EGR plumbing is air-tight from the muffler take-off all the way to the balance pipe.
The Air-Injection system is an accessibility obstacle course (#22) and I deleted it as well, plugged the heads where the injection pipes (#19) thread in, and I blocked off the central idling anti-backfire valve port at 3, and kept the pump as a momento only. Air injection has a major downside to it, it raises exhaust temperatures through the roof and
promotes cracking in the valve port/seat area. These air-cooled engines are pushed to their limits with air-injection and, much like a mis-fire that overheats a catalytic converter, a rich main or a mal-functioning choke because the wire fell off or something, will heat those exhaust ports as detrimentally as a leak in the EGR will heat the combustion chambers,
in both instances, the heads suffer. The anti-backfire valve (#23) has to work if you're keeping it. The control hose (it tees into the "Mixture Reference Hose") opens the air pump outlet to the central idling circuit every time there is high vacuum, i.e. when you shift, so that the afterburners don't backfire like mad. If any of these connections leak, you are introducing air that will burn up your engine under load. Pull the hose off the air pump-to-check valve (#1) also. It won't give you vacuum leaks, but it will give you noise, soot, unwanted heat, and exhaust fumes waiting to get sucked into the cabin through the heater blower.
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www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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WestyPop
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2005
Posts: 1732
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Looks like the driver pulley for the smog pump has broken off the crank pulley; very common. Someone may suggest a work-around on that... unless you're in a state that requires your vehicle be inspected, including a 'visual'.
BTW there's a nice info piece on your bus's emissions control systems right here on the Samba http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/73emissions.php
Good luck solving the mysteries.
_________________
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
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J.R.
68 Westy
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germansupplyscott
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7093
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:11 am Post subject: |
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the '73 and '74 plastic air filter housings are the same.
_________________
SL |
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RyanPatrick
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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If it isn't too much trouble for you... thank you
I'd be great to see what one for a '73 looks like...
-Ryan |
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Alex6373
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2007
Posts: 882
Location: Vancouver Island,B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Post a picture , heres a picture of part of my 73!
I can remove mine and take some photos if you need them?
Last edited by Alex6373 on Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:04 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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RyanPatrick
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Found a guy with an air filter housing. He doesn't know if it is from a '73 or '74.
Anyone know how to tell the difference and if it will work for a '73 if it is from a '74? Or are they identical? |
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germansupplyscott
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7093
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| RyanPatrick wrote: |
I'll pick up the air filter here in town...
You think I can get the elbows and most tubing at a parts store like NAPA? |
most of the hoses in your pics look OK, as if they have been replaced not too long ago.
we have a kit:
http://www.germansupply.com/home/customer/product.php?productid=17911
the sizes of the hoses are all metric and not too likely to be found at NAPA. but you never know...
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Don't expect that rectangular enrichment device on the outer side of the left carb to click, it may silently get warm after quite a few minutes but it'll never click. Odds are good the seals in it are petrified and it's permanently in warm mode anyways. Leave it disconnected for now and expect it to run a little crappy and quit occasionally for the first few minutes when it's cold on a cool day. Once you get all the other issues dialed in mess with it, but leave it alone for now.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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VDubTech
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2002
Posts: 9142
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Your best bet honestly on the dual carbs is to PM Amskeptic, he'll be able to walk you through everything you need to know. As for parts from NAPA--highly doubtful. These are old vehicles and it's just not economically feasible for parts stores to stock parts for them. You're gonna have to get comfortable with the idea of mail ordering sooner or later. Even if by some miracle you could get what you needed at a NAPA, the quality would be sketchy at best. Shop around and buy the best part you can afford. There are a lot of shitty low quality parts out there for our Buses, and doing the job twice because you wanted to save a couple bucks on the first go round just doesn't make any sense to me.
_________________
First Trip in the RustyBus:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279077&highlight=
| borninabus wrote: |
| a measurement of your rod would be extremely useful. |
| notchboy wrote: |
| my dad wasnt a belittling cock when he tought me how to wrench on cars. |
| EverettB wrote: |
One photo = good for reference.
10 photos = douchebaggery |
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RyanPatrick
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'll pick up the air filter here in town...
You think I can get the elbows and most tubing at a parts store like NAPA?
How can I tell if the central fuel enrichment solenoid is functioning? Will it click with power?
Let you know how it goes once it's all connected up... the Right way.  |
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VDubTech
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2002
Posts: 9142
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| RyanPatrick wrote: |
| The problem is, I'm not sure I want to pay the hundred bucks for an original air filter quite yet. I want to be able to get it to drive without stalling out first. It should be able to do that without the large air filter, right? |
As everyone has already told you, you need a COMPLETE system in place before you attempt any sort of tuning, including the air filter assembly. I told you in the other post you started about your air filter problem that I had one if you were interested, but you haven't contacted me so I have to assume you're not. Half assed is not the way to approach this. You're either into it and gonna do it right and be rewarded with a well running machine, or you're not into in and you're gonna try and nickle and dime it together and end up selling it off disappointed and telling everyone you know what a piece of shit it was. Time spent making sure it's right is time well spent.
_________________
First Trip in the RustyBus:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279077&highlight=
| borninabus wrote: |
| a measurement of your rod would be extremely useful. |
| notchboy wrote: |
| my dad wasnt a belittling cock when he tought me how to wrench on cars. |
| EverettB wrote: |
One photo = good for reference.
10 photos = douchebaggery |
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RyanPatrick
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah... I agree. The problem is, I'm not sure I want to pay the hundred bucks for an original air filter quite yet. I want to be able to get it to drive without stalling out first. It should be able to do that without the large air filter, right? I need some confidence in this machine before I throw more money at it. I know they say I need a complete system, but the PO was able to drive it around without it stalling like this.
Yeah, that large hole down there was the reason it wasn't idling. (That brake booster sure can hide down there if you don't know what you're looking for.) I'll have to check tomorrow if it will still stall when I take it for a drive around the block. Here I have all the awesome diagrams and information by Colin printed out, but they can't serve me with this hacked-up system... Like my right carb is missing the right cut-off jet.
Last edited by RyanPatrick on Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like you found one of your problems but I agree with Scott, get everything you can see hooked/wired/plumbed up properly first and see how it works after that.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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RyanPatrick
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I see where the flame is coming from down on the left carb. I didn't even see this tube with nothing attached to it. It is coming from the intake manifold towards the front. I'll have to check to see where this should go to.
Talk about a leak... |
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germansupplyscott
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7093
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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you need a more thorough approach. the complete system needs to be present and all hoses, electrical connections, components etc. should be in place tested and working. then you can start to troubleshoot and tune.
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RyanPatrick
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| silverside61 wrote: |
| see that little gold colored can with in the photo of carb 2nd from bottom pic? that is an idle cutoff. it appears that it has no wire going to it. it needs 12v + going to it, switched from ignition. like from coil +. it will never stay idleing if that doesnt work. you can test it by hooking it to pos, and seeing if it clicks. check your bentley wiring diagram. |
So I ran a wire to this idle cutoff solenoid, and it didn't help with it idling at all. (It would click). I removed the cap that was covering the central air intake, and that didn't do anything for idling either.
The Central cut-off solenoid would click as well.
The other rectangular one, which I'm pretty sure is called the central fuel-enrichment, doesn't click when 12v positive is brought to it.
When I cover both of the carbs with my hands, the engine revs up really high...
Not sure why that is.
Something else I just did that I read on another post was to check for leaking connections with the manifold by spraying carb cleaner down at the base. It is getting dark outside so I can't see exactly where I'm spraying... but I sprayed some low and down there and after a few seconds (I'm back there keeping it going by giving it gas) there was some flames down there, also some flames came up through the carb. |
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germansupplyscott
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7093
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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keep this in one thread...
| RyanPatrick wrote: |
Any idea what the tube is in the center of the first photowith a crimp in it?
Any idea what the mess of wires next to the battery was
once for? - Carbs? |
the '73 air filter housing is different from the '72. we have used if you're in need of it.
the crimped tube is part of the air injection system which has been partly removed already. the wires are probably for the booster fan and might be part of the vacuum advance cutoff circuit. i didn't study that part of the photo closely. they have nothing to do with the carbs i don't think.
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RyanPatrick
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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These are the exact sort of responses I was looking for.
Any idea what the tube is in the center of the first photo
with a crimp in it? Is that crimp in the tube supposed to
be there?
Any idea what the mess of wires next to the battery was
once for? - Carbs?
Can I take an air filter housing off of a 1972 bus?
Or is it worth $100 to buy one from a 1973 bus?
Maybe I should start a different thread for these questions?
Thanks guys-
Ryan
Last edited by RyanPatrick on Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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germansupplyscott
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7093
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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it's a mess, but you can recover. much of what you need is still there. you need the original air filter housing. whoever worked on the carbs before you was completely clueless on how they operate.
there are so many things wrong in the photos i barely know where to begin. it's odd the engine will run at all with there being no power to the idle solenoid and pilot jets. also the central idle circuit intake pipe is covered with a rubber cap, that cannot be, the left carb uses that pipe to suck in air supply for idle. what you need is colin kellog (amskeptic) to visit you for a day and sort it all out. maybe he can do a digital house call...
start here (thread below) and see what your setup should look like. and study the bentley section on dual carburetors.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=398662
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silverside61
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2007
Posts: 505
Location: Winterport, Me
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| see that little gold colored can with in the photo of carb 2nd from bottom pic? that is an idle cutoff. it appears that it has no wire going to it. it needs 12v + going to it, switched from ignition. like from coil +. it will never stay idleing if that doesnt work. you can test it by hooking it to pos, and seeing if it clicks. check your bentley wiring diagram. |
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