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2.0L FI engine acceleration problem
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Hot Rod Harp
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Location: Englewood, New Jersey
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:18 am    Post subject: 2.0L FI engine acceleration problem Reply with quote

Hello Folks,

I have a problem with a 76 2.0L FI engine that starts and idles fine
and will rev over 3k rpm when cold, first stared. As it warms up it breaks
up/bucks when revved over 2600 rpm. I have been chasing this all summer.

Colin was here in May for a 1/2 day and it acted up on him as well. I
addressed some if his concerns. Trobleshooting via the Bentley manual and
TheSamba. At first I was not sure if the problem was ignition or fuel related
and did not want to throw parts at it, anyway since May I have done
the following;

Tune up; new and adjusted spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser,
points(lubed dizzy shaft), coil, fuel pump & mounts, fuel fiter(4x),
removed gas tank w/ engine in and clean it, replaced fuel filler
neck, fuel sender, all fuel and vac hose(German Supply kits), vent
hoses, Fuel Injectors, all hoses w/ correct clamps.Air filter.

Adjusted timing best I could, bucks bad over 2800 rpm about 28*,
advance or retard it never smooths out, idles at 7.5*BTDC
dwell at 50* (new points)

Adjusted valves again(no change), new cover gaskets.
Then I decide to try Pertronix Ignitor 2......no difference

Colin adjusted my AFM (on every visit) showing me what the deal is.
I print out his AFM adjust procedure study it until I think I have
it. the AFM is in it's sweet spot.....no difference

Then I break out magnifing glass and light and examine the AFM
wiper board. Do I see a faint white showing thur right about where
it breaks up when I rev it, that must be it, so I order an AFM
(had to wait a month). Prior to that I ohmed out the AFM at the ECU
plug all values well within spec per Bentley. Swap out the AFM all
happy and everything, well......no difference

Did I mention I replaced the TS2 even tho it measured within spec,
but insulation on wire was cracked and expose.

I do not have a lot of experience driving this bus (less than 20 miles)
as it was driven to my house by the seller and I was hospitalized for a
long time (survived bad MC accident, so very thankful to be alive)

So this is where I'm at; I hope its not something like a dropped or loose
valve seat. I should note I have a butchered single bugpak muffler and
header. The header is not equal length pipes, the exhaust didn't fit right,
hung too low, so muff shop cut & welded, but it's off set (3-4 side shorter
than 1-2 side). Can this cause a problem?

Have photos if needed. I recorded video on my phone in mp4 (first time)
and sent to my emai, unable to play on computer. May try regular camera
that works w/ media player.

So Samba what should I do? I don't want to wait for Colin next year to fix
this not accelerating smoothly. All comments and advice welcomed.

Thank you in advance,

Skip
_________________
74 Thing 1600DP
76 Westfalia 2.0L FI
69 Beetle 1500SP sold
88 Goldwing GL1500/6 sold


RinTinTin in Waldorf Astoria 1956
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johnsilverlakes
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L FI engine acceleration problem Reply with quote

Hot Rod Harp wrote:
Hello Folks,

I have a problem with a 76 2.0L FI engine that starts and idles fine
and will rev over 3k rpm when cold, first stared. As it warms up it breaks
up/bucks when revved over 2600 rpm. I have been chasing this all summer.

Colin was here in May for a 1/2 day and it acted up on him as well. I
addressed some if his concerns. Trobleshooting via the Bentley manual and
TheSamba. At first I was not sure if the problem was ignition or fuel related
and did not want to throw parts at it, anyway since May I have done
the following;

Tune up; new and adjusted spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser,
points(lubed dizzy shaft), coil, fuel pump & mounts, fuel fiter(4x),
removed gas tank w/ engine in and clean it, replaced fuel filler
neck, fuel sender, all fuel and vac hose(German Supply kits), vent
hoses, Fuel Injectors, all hoses w/ correct clamps.Air filter.

Adjusted timing best I could, bucks bad over 2800 rpm about 28*,
advance or retard it never smooths out, idles at 7.5*BTDC
dwell at 50* (new points)

Adjusted valves again(no change), new cover gaskets.
Then I decide to try Pertronix Ignitor 2......no difference

Colin adjusted my AFM (on every visit) showing me what the deal is.
I print out his AFM adjust procedure study it until I think I have
it. the AFM is in it's sweet spot.....no difference

Then I break out magnifing glass and light and examine the AFM
wiper board. Do I see a faint white showing thur right about where
it breaks up when I rev it, that must be it, so I order an AFM
(had to wait a month). Prior to that I ohmed out the AFM at the ECU
plug all values well within spec per Bentley. Swap out the AFM all
happy and everything, well......no difference

Did I mention I replaced the TS2 even tho it measured within spec,
but insulation on wire was cracked and expose.

I do not have a lot of experience driving this bus (less than 20 miles)
as it was driven to my house by the seller and I was hospitalized for a
long time (survived bad MC accident, so very thankful to be alive)

So this is where I'm at; I hope its not something like a dropped or loose
valve seat. I should note I have a butchered single bugpak muffler and
header. The header is not equal length pipes, the exhaust didn't fit right,
hung too low, so muff shop cut & welded, but it's off set (3-4 side shorter
than 1-2 side). Can this cause a problem?

Have photos if needed. I recorded video on my phone in mp4 (first time)
and sent to my emai, unable to play on computer. May try regular camera
that works w/ media player.

So Samba what should I do? I don't want to wait for Colin next year to fix
this not accelerating smoothly. All comments and advice welcomed.

Thank you in advance,

Skip


I've got a 76 Westy. Many years ago I had a similar problem and swore it was the fuel injection system and was ready to convert to carbs. It lacked serious power, but would start up fine and idle. I went through everything you've described and it wound up being that the distributor wasn't advancing. A quick test would be to see if the rotor will twist and return - or hook up a timing light for a better sense of what's going on. Also, make sure the distributor is mounted all the way in. It can jump out of it's slot at higher rpms and lock back into it's groove...unfortunately, I've experienced that also...
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Hot Rod Harp
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks John, I sucked on the vac advance port and the plate moved and returned. I also cleaned and lubed the distributor, had to replace broken fiber washer on top of drive dog (Thanks Glenn Ring). I thought the vac can was bad too but it acts just like the new Pertronix vac adv dizzy, so I reinstalled the original dizzy with points so I wouldn't have too many variables.

I'll re examine the distributor drive. I have two dizzy clamps so when I timed w/ timing strobe light and dwell/tach meter one dizzy, I can swap Pertronix in
and adjust it and lock that clamp. The idea was to run Pertronix and have stock SVDA dizzy adjusted ready to go as a spare I can just slap in.

It got to be something.....no power under load, as Colin says "it's protesting" acceleration.
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74 Thing 1600DP
76 Westfalia 2.0L FI
69 Beetle 1500SP sold
88 Goldwing GL1500/6 sold


RinTinTin in Waldorf Astoria 1956
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Wasted youth
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just in the 2600 range, or also anything past that like above 3,000?
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Wasted youth
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a fuel injector test light? It is kind of like a 12V test lamp, but it flickers with the fuel injection cycle. I think you can use it to test each fuel injector lead at any given RPM. I do not have one, but only read about them.
I had a 1977 model FI bus. One of the crimped leads to the resistor pack broke off giving me poor acceleration.

High RPM problems and easy start seems to rule out vacuum leaks, and you said you tested your fuel system. Did you Tee in a fuel pressure gauge and watch it at all RPM ranges? Maybe the fuel regulator is faltering. Fuel pressure would need to be witnessed at the problem range.

I would have suggested the AFM, but it looks like that is not an issue.

I am a little concerned by the exhaust description. Hopefully it is not causing a restriction.
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bspeaks1
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might also check your ignition coil. My bus acted up in a similar manner and we finally realized the coil was bad.
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Wasted youth
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bspeaks1 wrote:
You might also check your ignition coil. My bus acted up in a similar manner and we finally realized the coil was bad.


I agree. Check both sides of the coil's resistance when cold, then after it gets warmed up. If it is bad, ensure you get the correct replacement coil.
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Hot Rod Harp
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasted-only gets above 3000 rpm right after start, within few min anyway around 2600-2800 engine gets cranky start shaken. I only have regular test lamp. I'll check the resistor pack. When Colin was here he used his fuel pressure gauge, I recall 30 psi, I think that was running, not monitored at all rpms. Need to check, didn't replace FPR yet. I spoke w/ Fuel Injection Corp who rebuilds AFM (my original rebuilt in 2001) for Bus Depot. Bob said my problem sounds like AFM failure, thats when I ordered (didn't want to send my out without a replacement on hand), but both respond the same.

The exhaust is a hack, tucks up neat, but bumper gets hot. If I can get it running right I'll go with stainless J pipes to a 72-74 muffler. Also sounds like a coil that open when it gets hot, but I have a new Beru coil that is 3.3ohms (ok for pertronix) and still have original I may swap back.
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74 Thing 1600DP
76 Westfalia 2.0L FI
69 Beetle 1500SP sold
88 Goldwing GL1500/6 sold


RinTinTin in Waldorf Astoria 1956
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Wasted youth
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this condition sounds more affected by temperature than RPM. Hydraulic or solid lifters?

Just grasping now, but have you done a warm and dry compression check? Have you had any significant valve creep lately?

Also, when things warm up, they expand. Maybe you are getting a vacuum leak only when hot?

Do you have an exhaust gas analyzer? I wish I did. It would indicate your fuel/air mixture, which could help identify a vacuum leak when hot.
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Hot Rod Harp
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

solid lifters, I guess could be temp related somehow, I'll have to revisit compression check. Only checked valve adjustment twice and the first time exhaust on #4 was tight. Tried spraying carb cleaner around looking for vac leaks, none found, don't have smoke machine or exhaust gas analyzer either.
Used an old hard to read vac gauge, around 18" I think and steady.

I thought my 6/76 Westy should have had a full throttle switch, well it doesn't,its like a 77.
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74 Thing 1600DP
76 Westfalia 2.0L FI
69 Beetle 1500SP sold
88 Goldwing GL1500/6 sold


RinTinTin in Waldorf Astoria 1956
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was re-reading your initial complaint. Obviously, I cannot be there to see it, and I don't have a great deal of experience anyway. However, I was thinking about it some more.

If the Thermo-time Switch never heats up, then the Cold Start Valve hangs open. Theoretically, the engine heat will eventually negate the heating element inside the TTS, but if the control wiring that masters the CSV from the TTS is bad, maybe the CSV never shuts off? This would give you a rich condition when cold when needed, but continues to choke the engine after it is warm. I suppose this could give you acceleration issues, but this may be a stretch of imagination. Anyway, you can troubleshoot both the Thermo-time Switch and the cold Start Valve with Bentley, starting on page 10-9

Also, do you have an EGR valve installed in the system? If it is malfunctioning and hanging open all the time, it might cause a lean condition by injecting exhaust gas into the fuel air mixture at incorrect volumes.

When you get deep into the FI trouble shooting, Mal evolent has made a clearing house of diagrams:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=513607

Also, from the Samba Archives:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/fuelinjection.php

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=605153
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Hot Rod Harp
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Wasted thanks for taking the time to revisit the problem. You may be on to something, one of the things Colin pointed out was my CSV connector was damaged and would fall off easily. I ordered a connector pigtail from RockAuto.
There were 3 white wires going to 2 female pins, so 2 wires on one of the pins, I may have put the odd wire on the wrong pin because the original connector wires were frayed. Well it's something to try, maybe disconnect CSV and see what happens. No functioning EGR, only linkage from throttle body, seems to be capped off, I may have slightly bent the linkage getting the gas tank out and tweaked it back upon re installation. More to follow.

Again thanks for your ideas
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74 Thing 1600DP
76 Westfalia 2.0L FI
69 Beetle 1500SP sold
88 Goldwing GL1500/6 sold


RinTinTin in Waldorf Astoria 1956
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hot Rod Harp wrote:
....Well it's something to try, maybe disconnect CSV and see what happens. No functioning EGR, only linkage from throttle body, seems to be capped off, I may have slightly bent the linkage getting the gas tank out and tweaked it back upon re installation. More to follow.


Yes, do ensure all of your connectors are in good order. I also ordered some of those from my FLAPS for both my 1977 and my 1981. Perfect fit.

Disconnecting the CSV might tell you something, but do try also the functional test in the Bentley for both your CSV and the TTS. Ensure the EGR linkage at the intake plenum is not bent to where it remains open and flooding the intake with exhaust gases. Remember that vacuum is much lower at high RPM's with higher exhaust gas pressure. So although the exhaust gas enters the plenum stream through a baffle tube (which is likely fouled after many years, so maybe this is irrelevant! Laughing ), at higher RPMs you would get more exhaust gas pressure, and at low RPM's the opposite is occurring: High vacuum sucking in lower amounts of low pressure exhaust gas. There is supposed to be a gasket with orifice in line in the tubing to limit this action, but orifices limit flow and volume, not pressure.

But you say the tubing is disconnected... this is in a way to eliminate any of the exhaust gas to flow into the plenum, or what? If this is indeed the case, then take a look and try to figure out if a bent control arm on the EGR valve is causing some other issue with fuel/air mixture.

EGR gaskets from SGKent:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Does your EGR valve look like this? (thanks to Tcash)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's what mine looked like after I disassembled it from my 1977 bus:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L FI engine acceleration problem Reply with quote

Hot Rod Harp wrote:
Hello Folks,

I have a problem with a 76 2.0L FI
Auto or Stick?

Engine that starts and idles fine.
Will rev over 3k rpm when cold.
As it warms up it breaks up/bucks when revved over 2600 rpm.

At first I was not sure if the problem was ignition or fuel related
You need to figure out which one it is?


Tune up;
New and adjusted spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, points
List the part numbers used.
Coil,
Part numbers? Does the coil get hot when this happens? If they are not internally resisted you need to install a external ballast resistor. Do you have the white wire from the computer on the - Neg #1 side of the coil? What is the voltage on the + Pos #15 side of the coil while this is happening?
Fuel pump
Fuel fiter(4x)
Why 4x, where they dirty?
Cleaned Gas tank
Fuel and vac hoses (German Supply kits)
Air filter
(lubed dizzy shaft)
Did you lube the advance mechanism?

Adjusted timing best I could idles at 7.5*BTDC
Does the light start scattering when it breaks up or bucks? Hook the timing light to the coil wire and each of the plug wires and note if the light stays steady on any of them.
Dwell at 50* (new points)
Does the dwell hold steady when you increase the rpm. Or does it fluctuate?
Adjusted valves again(no change).
Hydraulic or Solid?
Then I decide to try Pertronix Ignitor 2......no difference

Swap out the AFM all, well......no difference.
Unplug the AFM and test.

I replaced the TS2 even tho it measured within spec.
Try grounding the TS2 wire and test.

So this is where I'm at; I hope its not something like a dropped or loose
valve seat.
It would miss all the time. You can hook up a vacuum gauge to test the valves.

I should note I have a butchered single bugpak muffler and
header. The header is not equal length pipes, the exhaust didn't fit right,
hung too low, so muff shop cut & welded, but it's off set (3-4 side shorter
than 1-2 side). Can this cause a problem?
No, not this problem.

Have photos if needed. I recorded video on my phone in mp4 (first time)
and sent to my emai, unable to play on computer. May try regular camera
that works w/ media player.
A video would be nice. Because breaks up/bucks can mean different things to different people.

So Samba what should I do? I don't want to wait for Colin next year to fix
this not accelerating smoothly. All comments and advice welcomed.
You need to determine if it is a Fuel or Ignition problem
Pull the air cleaner and while increasing the rpm's spray Starter fluid, Carb cleaner or Propane in the throat of the AFM. If it smooths out Fuel problem.

As posted. Hook the timing light to the coil wire and each of the plug wires and note if the light stays steady on any of them. If the light breaks up. Ignition problem.

Clean the white ground wires under the plenum.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If all else fails. Find someone with a ECU (computer) you can try.



Good Luck
Tcash
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Hot Rod Harp
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L FI engine acceleration problem Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
Hot Rod Harp wrote:
Hello Folks,

I have a problem with a 76 2.0L FI
Stick or Auto?

Engine that starts and idles fine.
Will rev over 3k rpm when cold.
As it warms up it breaks up/bucks when revved over 2600 rpm.

At first I was not sure if the problem was ignition or fuel related
You need to figure out which one it is?


Tune up;
New and adjusted spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, points
List the part numbers (used, BusDepot kit).

Coil,
Part numbers? Does the coil get hot when this happens? If they are not internally resisted you need to install a external ballast resistor. Do you have the white wire from the computer on the - Neg #1 side of the coil? [color=green](yes) What is the voltage on the + Pos #15 side of the coil while this is happening? [/color]

Fuel pump
Fuel fiter(4x)
Why 4x, where they dirty? (No wanted to be sure fuel was clean)
Cleaned Gas tank
Fuel and vac hoses (German Supply kits)
Air filter
(lubed dizzy shaft)
Did you lube the advance mechanism? (yes)

Adjusted timing best I could idles at 7.5*BTDC
Does the light start scattering when it breaks up or bucks? Hook the timing light to the coil wire and each of the plug wires and note if the light stays steady on any of them.
Dwell at 48* (new points)
Does the dwell hold steady when you increase the rpm. Or does it fluctuate? (seemed steady)
Adjusted valves again(no change).
Solid?
Then I decide to try Pertronix Ignitor 2......no difference

Swap out the AFM all, well......no difference.
Unplug the AFM and test.
(Tested at ECU end, all resistance within spec)
Unplug it and run it.

I replaced the TS2 even tho it measured within spec.
Try grounding the TS2 wire and test.
(old 2.3kohms, new 2.9kohms @~58*)
Try grounding it.

So this is where I'm at; I hope its not something like a dropped or loose
valve seat.
It would miss all the time. You can hook up a vacuum gauge to test the valves.

I should note I have a butchered single bugpak muffler and
header. The header is not equal length pipes, the exhaust didn't fit right,
hung too low, so muff shop cut & welded, but it's off set (3-4 side shorter
than 1-2 side). Can this cause a problem?
No, not this problem.

Have photos if needed. I recorded video on my phone in mp4 (first time)
and sent to my email, unable to play on computer. May try regular camera
that works w/ media player.
A video would be nice. Because breaks up/bucks can mean different things to different people.

So Samba what should I do? I don't want to wait for Colin next year to fix
this not accelerating smoothly. All comments and advice welcomed.
You need to determine if it is a Fuel or Ignition problem
Pull the air cleaner and while increasing the rpm's spray Starter fluid, Carb cleaner or Propane in the throat of the AFM. If it smooths out Fuel problem.

(Yes it did)

As posted. Hook the timing light to the coil wire and each of the plug wires and note if the light stays steady on any of them. If the light breaks up. Ignition problem
(seemed pretty solid).

Clean the white ground wires under the plenum,
(yes, used DEOXIT.)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If all else fails. Find someone with a ECU (computer) you can try.[/color]


Good Luck
Tcash


Tried a few more things, spayed starting fluid into AFM when it acted up and it accelerated pretty good.
Fuel pressure or Fuel injector signal.

So thought it was fuel related ordered fuel pressure regulator and gauge (33-37 psi, overnight held 15 psi).
What happens to the pressure when you accelerate it?

Then it did not want to run at all, cranks until you let go of key.
Do you mean when you release the key from crank to run it acts like it wants to start?
Pull the plugs and clean them. They are probably fouled.



Troubleshooting...found one wire broke off on Ballast resistor and another wire holding on by one stand. Very tough to solder, but the two wires are on and holding.
Ohm test all the wires and make sure they test good.

Still not starting, so more troubleshooting to come. The important thing I wanted TheSamba to know is that Bosch 0280159001 / VW 022 906 079
Series Resistor Pack (N34) on '76 wiring schematic is NLA.
There was one in the classifieds, but it's gone. Emailed Avery's, Busted Bus, Bus Depot, Auto Atlanta....have not found one yet. More to follow...


Electrical is usually want changes with heat. Unless you have the fuel hoses running by something hot causing vapor lock.

Thanks
Harp

_________________
74 Thing 1600DP
76 Westfalia 2.0L FI
69 Beetle 1500SP sold
88 Goldwing GL1500/6 sold


RinTinTin in Waldorf Astoria 1956


Last edited by Hot Rod Harp on Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hot Rod Harp
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L FI engine acceleration problem Reply with quote

Also wanted to mention that I tested the CSV and TTS, both seem ok.
I think I did slightly bent the EGR linkage from the throttle body when
I removed the gas tank without removing engine (lowered about 1/2").
Well I bent it back, looked straight, but decided to remove and examine the
EGR valve. Cleaned it up, had crud inside but still moved, decided to remove altogether as it was blocked off anyway.
Used that block off plate and gasket to cover the hole in the plenum.

Received an email may have found series resistor pack, whoo hoo.
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74 Thing 1600DP
76 Westfalia 2.0L FI
69 Beetle 1500SP sold
88 Goldwing GL1500/6 sold


RinTinTin in Waldorf Astoria 1956
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L FI engine acceleration problem Reply with quote

Ok, finally got it to accelerate as designed. The problem was electrical and fuel related. Found the ballast resistors was bad for the injectors and found a replacement, also found TS2 spade lug wire slipped out of connector, and the single white ground wire under the plenum was very loose. When it refused to start also found +12V wire pulled out of connector on fuel pump, (soldered it).

Finally able to set timing at 28* at 3400 rpm, idle 975, dwell 50*.
sounds like a sewing machine, sweet.

Thank you Samba for all your help.
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74 Thing 1600DP
76 Westfalia 2.0L FI
69 Beetle 1500SP sold
88 Goldwing GL1500/6 sold


RinTinTin in Waldorf Astoria 1956
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Waves2day
Samba Member


Joined: October 15, 2008
Posts: 408
Location: Bay Area, CA
Waves2day is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L FI engine acceleration problem Reply with quote

congrats! gotta love a happy ending. Laughing
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Sam
1976 Westfalia Camper Pop-top
1972 Westfalia Hardtop (sold)
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