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cdennisg
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Joined: November 02, 2004
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Location: Sandpoint, ID
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 Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| where you may get into trouble is to add more tension you may have trouble pushing the spring plate back up. Do you know if this bus started life as a Westphalia camper or is it a kombi wagon someone converted to a camper? The thickness of the torsion bars differs between a camper and a kombi wagon. Also the settings are slightly different. |
This has been proven untrue. Bentley has the specs, and we have all seen the different bar sizes, but they do not necessarily correlate to the bus that should have them.
Factory settings are different, (spring preload for overall bus weight), but that was when the buses were nice and shiny new. Now that they are pushing 50 years, you cannot rely on things being fresh anymore.
Torsion bar preload (getting the bottom of the spring plate over the lower stop) is not difficult to overcome. If the overlap is more than say 1/4", you probably have things set incorrectly to attain a stock-like ride height.
The reality is, you just need to play with the settings until you get your desired result. You can go by the book, but you will likely be disappointed.
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vwwestyman
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| where you may get into trouble is to add more tension you may have trouble pushing the spring plate back up. Do you know if this bus started life as a Westphalia camper or is it a kombi wagon someone converted to a camper? The thickness of the torsion bars differs between a camper and a kombi wagon. Also the settings are slightly different. |
Yeah, it is a true Westy.
Wildthings-Do you have a pic of the gauge in use?
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| Wildthings-Do you have a pic of the gauge in use? |
Sorry, no I do not.  |
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wcfvw69 
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| where you may get into trouble is to add more tension you may have trouble pushing the spring plate back up. Do you know if this bus started life as a Westphalia camper or is it a kombi wagon someone converted to a camper? The thickness of the torsion bars differs between a camper and a kombi wagon. Also the settings are slightly different. |
Yeah, it is a true Westy.
Wildthings-Do you have a pic of the gauge in use? |
If you read the previous threads about re-setting the torsion bars, you'll find that the settings or movements of the spring plates and torsion bars are usually accurate.
The best way to do it w/your bus would be to check your tire inflations to make sure they are all equal and that you have the same size tires all around. Then, find a level spot and measure your bus side to side to see if its sitting level. Write down what the measurement is from the ground to the rear fenders. Try and determine how low the rear of the bus is sitting. You can slip a floor jack under the transmission mount and raise it up to where you believe it should be sitting. Re-measure from the ground to the top of the rear fender. What's the difference between the two? Write that down.
Then, put the bus in the air on jack stands trying to keep it level front to back and side to side. Remove the torsion plates off the ledge. Get the protractor and measure what the angle of the torsion plates are. Write the number down. Again, before you measure the torsion plate angle off the ledge, make sure the bus is level side to side, front to back. Measure the diameter of the torsion bar in the bus. Use the Bentley guide to identify what your buses angle should be. Is your angle off? How much? Obviously, do the math and figure out if readjusting the spring plate/torsion bar will reset it to the height you want it to be.
I bet you'll find your bars have sagged and simply restoring the plates to the factory plate angle spec's will get it sitting at the correct factory height. When I did my bus, I followed the Bentley. One side of my bus was sitting 1/2" low on the rear. The spring plate angle was also off about that much on that side of the bus. I pulled the spring plate off the torsion bar and moved it down one notch on the bar. I then pulled the bar out of the housing and turned the torsion bar in the housing one notch the opposite direction. Doing that corrected the torsion plate angle back to the Bentley spec and my bus sat level afterward. Just moving the plate down one notch and the bar up one notch achieved about a 1/2" of height adjustment.
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vwwestyman
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Amskeptic
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| I guess my question is, with the TDI engine back there and it's increased weight, does that affect things as far as what I should target for getting its ride correct? |
The ride height is not the "constant". What is the constant is your center of gravity.
How much more does this engine weigh? Stick a kid who weighs the difference between stock engine and TDI on the rear deck and see how much the rear end drops. If the car rides a 1/2" lower, don't even worry about it.
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vwwestyman
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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I suppose the reasons I'm thinking about ride height are several...
First, if the back end can be raised, that'll also raise my radiator a little bit, which will make semi-off road excursions less risky.
Second, the trailer hitch is real low for towing.
Third, visually it just looks low and a little funky.
Out of curiosity, I did some comparison measuring between the '78 Bus in question, and my '73.
I am quite sure that the ride height of the '73 is very near factory, primarily based on how the thing looks, I suppose, as well as how how unmolested the rest of the bus is.
Based on how the '78 looks to be saggy and the '73 doesn't, I was a little surprised at a couple of my findings. Sorry they are all in inches, I was using the tape measure! 
Both Bus' have factory front suspension as far as I know. The bottom edge of both front bumpers is 18 1/5 high. This is surprising because the '73 is on factory size tires (measuring roughly 24 1/2" diameter accounting for a little bit of squish on the bottom), while the '78 is on larger tires, measuring roughly 26 1/4".
Anyway, on to the rear end measurements.
Both Bus' wheel arches are real close, with the '73 at 23 3/8 and the '78 at 23 1/8.
The bottom of the rear shock absorbers: '73 6 1/4 '78 7 1/4. This makes sense because from the ground to the center of the hubcaps are very close to '73 12" and '78 13".
Space from the lower stops to the bottom edge of the spring plates:
'73 roughly 5/8" '78 roughly 15/16".
So despite the taller tires and larger distance from the bottom of the shock to the ground, the body of the '78 (measured at wheel arch) is still a bit lower than the '73!
So I think I will just go ahead and KISS and turn the bars one notch inner and outer to raise it up a bit, and see how it sits from there.
I do have new bushings to install whenever I get this done.
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cdennisg
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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If I recall the guideline chart correctly, one notch inner/one notch outer will gain approximately 3/16" of ride height.
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wcfvw69
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| If I recall the guideline chart correctly, one notch inner/one notch outer will gain approximately 3/16" of ride height. |
I found it to be 3/8" to 1/2" when I did my 70.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| If I recall the guideline chart correctly, one notch inner/one notch outer will gain approximately 3/16" of ride height. |
I found it to be 3/8" to 1/2" when I did my 70. |
I would think at least that much. Somewhere I have seen a table that shows the lift you get per adjustment step, maybe it was for a Bug though, can't remember. |
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vwwestyman
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| If I recall the guideline chart correctly, one notch inner/one notch outer will gain approximately 3/16" of ride height. |
I found it to be 3/8" to 1/2" when I did my 70. |
I would think at least that much. Somewhere I have seen a table that shows the lift you get per adjustment step, maybe it was for a Bug though, can't remember. |
Where are you measuring that half inch? Fender? Spring plate to stop? Rear bumper?
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richparker
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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I don't really see what all the hub-bub is about. Pull it apart, measure the angle unweighed, increase the angle 2* (which will entail internal and external movements), put in new bushings and be done with it. It's really not that hard.
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cdennisg
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| If I recall the guideline chart correctly, one notch inner/one notch outer will gain approximately 3/16" of ride height. |
I found it to be 3/8" to 1/2" when I did my 70. |
I would think at least that much. Somewhere I have seen a table that shows the lift you get per adjustment step, maybe it was for a Bug though, can't remember. |
It is possible that the 3/16" number was from a chart for beetles. I do not recall clearly. But I would be surprised if a one up/one down adjustment was as large as a half inch. Maybe 1/4".
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cdennisg
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| richparker wrote: |
| I don't really see what all the hub-bub is about. Pull it apart, measure the angle unweighed, increase the angle 2* (which will entail internal and external movements), put in new bushings and be done with it. It's really not that hard. |
It is even easier if you forget about angles/protractors and just measure the amount of lift/lower you want, and adjust accordingly.
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richparker
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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^True. But not everyone's torsion bars are gonna be worn the same. The bars from the TDI build might be more stressed and therefore maybe his 1/1 turns only raise his rear 3/16" not the 1/2" of a wcfvw69. I went up 4.5* from the stock westy angle and love it.
Seeing how the TDI should be real strong maybe the bars should be real stiff to handle the sag the engine is gonna put on the rear end. Right now it's gotta look like a boat when he punches it off the line.
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cdennisg
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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| richparker wrote: |
^True. But not everyone's torsion bars are gonna be worn the same. The bars from the TDI build might be more stressed and therefore maybe his 1/1 turns only raise his rear 3/16" not the 1/2" of a wcfvw69. I went up 4.5* from the stock westy angle and love it.
Seeing how the TDI should be real strong maybe the bars should be real stiff to handle the sag the engine is gonna put on the rear end. Right now it's gotta look like a boat when he punches it off the line. |
4.5 degrees is the same as a given amount of inches in ride height. It's just easier (I think) to measure distance to the floor than it is to calculate angles.
Acceleration squat is certainly a consideration given a more powerful engine, but static ride height should be a constant. His heavier TDI will require more spring preload, that's all.
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vwwestyman
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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So I went through all the procedure today, and have to say I have mixed results.
I did learn a few things, though.
My Westy had red torsion bars, and they are right at 27 mm in diameter.
When I set them years ago, I remember looking at my Bentley and I'm sure I set them to the listed Campmobile setting of 20 degrees. Indeed, when I checked the previous setting, it was right at 20 degrees on the driver side. On the passenger side, it popped out before I could get it measured. Oops.
Anyway, I'm sure I looked at the Campmobile setting, and set it right at 20 degrees. But with the smaller bars, I should have set it at 23!
So I set them right around 23 degrees this time.
After putting things together, I found that the measurement from the spring plate to the stops had shrunk a little to about 7/8". However, I measured the wheel arch at 23 1/8 again! I don't know how that happened! Maybe I didn't measure it accurately before.
But, the bus is not riding on the bump stops which is good, and on the test drive it seemed quieter-less crashing noises when I hit a bump. I presume due to not sitting on the bump stops any more. They are still pretty close, though.
So I'll probably go ahead and bump it up a little bit more. Now that I'm refreshed on the procedure, I suppose it won't take too long to do.
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vwwestyman
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| Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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I did go ahead and bump up the suspension a bit.
I readjusted the suspension to 25.5 degrees and think this is a lot better.
The new height to the wheel arch is 23 9/16". I also measured the height at the bottom of the trailer hitch before and after this time. It went from 10" to 11.5.
The spring plate space went from 7/8 to 11/16".
I also took the time to level out the front so the rear of the bus was at zero degrees, as measured on the rain gutters above the brake drums.
Here's how I did that. I was able to fine-tune it with small turns of the handle.
This jack, from Wal-Mart, has a very wide foot. Now that I'm done with this job, it'll go in the Bus for camping purposes. I like to take the load off the suspension with camping so that it doesn't move as much.
And here is how the Bus sits now. I'm going to leave it at this for now and see how I like it, but I think that I will.
Edit: The angle of this pic makes it look butt-high but I think it is more level than that.
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richparker
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Smurf
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added) |
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Ok, i got my bus all measured up, new bushings in and the angle is set correctly.
I had an extremely hard time lining up the bolts for the spring plate cover. I mean 2 hours worth of finagling to get them semi-lined up. The new bushings seem to be oversized or something...has anyone had this problem?
I tried the method mentioned here of getting the spring plate into the inner bushing by torquing down the spring plate cover without the outer bushing and that had to be the worst method to use. My bolts are stripped and the torsion tube is all buggered up now. I thought it was just tough getting the plate into the bushing but now I'm screwed. I might have to put some time-serts in there or something.
Does anyone know what size bolt goes into the spring plate cover? It's gotta be a special kinda bolt right? Are longer sizes an option? Thread size? I'd like to order up some time-serts if possible.
Any and all help is appreciated. I though I'd be able to tackle this job pretty quickly after everything was going so smoothly...guess again lol.
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