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Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added)
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onion456
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awesome, sorely needed writeup! two extra beers for you.

can you possibly go more in depth on how/where you took your degree measurements? im still pretty unclear.

thanks!
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babysnakes
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great work, I'll be coming back to this thread as I also need to do this.
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patayres
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant to take a pic of the tool sitting on the spring plate, but forgot.

You can see where to measure the spring plate angle in this pic that Darryl took:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Sit the angle meter on the top of the spring plate and then lift the spring plate from the bottom to take out any play.

I measured the deviation from horizontal at the gutter, the sliding door, and the pinch weld at the bottom - fortunately they all agreed at 1* (the angle of the pic I took is a little deceiving).
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Last edited by patayres on Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mr'72Special
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, great write-up. Some guides I read can have pics situated at odd angles to the work space, but here it's definitely not the case. Also, great ideas on marking the position of the torsion bars and spring plates, will have to remember that for use later. Thanks for posting, this'll help in the future.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the biggest trick I figured out was how to go one spline at a time. if you marked the bar/plate relation, you can pull them as a unit to turn it one spline. A spline is a very large angualr change, and will be obvoius with the spring plate still on it. once you get the inner splines wehre you want em, slide the spring plate off the bar and adujust it in the other direction to get your vernier adjustment all settled in.

also, someitmes the bar will REFUSE to slide back into the torison housing, just wont engage the inner splines and no amount of hammering or wiggling will cure it. if cleaning the splines on the torsion bar don't fix it, then it is a problem with the splines in the tube. take an air line with no fitting on the end, and slide it all the way in untill it bottoms inside the splines on the opposite torsion bar. now hook it up to air and wiggle it around and slowly pull it out, this will blast any debris out into your eyes and allow the torsion bar to be installed ike butter. took me a full dayto figure that out. stupid me.
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purplegodzilla
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice, I might tackle this when the weather warms up.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great job on the post, thanks. I've done this job on a couple buses and never have used the protractor. The quick and dirty way is just like you said... one inner spline down and one outer spline up. I think that fixes most buses. I'm getting ready to do this again to another bus and your post will help me a lot. I can't remember disconnecting any brake lines though....
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must have missed it, how did you work out what you needed the angle to be? or where the 2 sides different and you simply matched them up........

it's late here and I'm a bit confused........
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dubdubz wrote:
I must have missed it, how did you work out what you needed the angle to be? or where the 2 sides different and you simply matched them up........

it's late here and I'm a bit confused........


Trying not to take anything away from this fantastic post but in answer to your question I think that if you match mark both the inner and outer spline locations so you know where you started it's a simple matter of rotating the inner torsion bar one large spline down while rotating spring plate on the outer spline one small spline up. That should give most bus owner the needed lift and you don't need special tools.
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patayres
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
how did you work out what you needed the angle to be?


If you look at the table on page one of this thread (from Bentley), there are two types of torsion bars: the lighter duty type found in standard transporters & the heavy duty type found in kombis and campers. One lesson to learn from my experience is to measure the diameter of the bars in your bus to confirm what spring plate angle is indicated for your torsion bars. My camper had the narrow diameter lighter duty bars, so the spring plate angle is properly set at 23*50' (60' = 1*, so I just rounded up to 24*).

So to set your torsion bars to the factory specifications (Bentley):
1. Put the bus on rear jacks, wheels off & measure the deviation from horizontal the bus is sitting. The gutter is a good spot for this measurement. Remember the number of degrees from 180* that the angle meter shows (at the gutter for example).
2. Go through the procedure until you have released the spring plate from the lower stop and let the plate back down from the jack. Now measure the spring plate angle by placing the angle meter on top of the spring plate.
3. If the rear of your bus is sitting higher than the front, add the number of degrees from #1 above to the the number of degrees from #2. If the rear is lower, subtract #1 from #2. This is the spring plate angle.

My measurement was 23* (22 measured at the spring plate and 1* added for deviation from horizontal). Per the Bentley, my torsion bars call for a spring plate angle of just under 24*. If you have the heavy duty torsion bars, that angle should be just under 21*.

Now comes understanding the vernier adjustment. One spline down on the inner/one spline up on the outer is equal to 50' (just under 1*). If your spring plate angle measures 22* and the bus is sitting perfectly level, you would want to add 2* to the spring plate angle, which is two clicks down/up the inner/outer splines.

I got my angle meter at Harbor Freight for around $5. The torsion bars seem to break in over the first 100K or so miles and need to be tightened up. 1* is likely a typical adjustment requirement as aeromech mentioned.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great right up on this procedure patayres......thanks so much; I'm preparing to tackle it and trying to get myself briefed.

A few questions:

1.) so the critical measure of "sag" is only done after the bus is up on jack stands and the spring plates are loosened from the rest of the suspension? It seems like that doesn't capture what is happening when the bus is on the ground and the butt is dragging. But I guess any "set" in the torsion bars will show up with they are not under load and so in the procedure you effectively measure for and correct for that set, is this right?

2.) Dusting the donut bushings in talc; is this to provide lubrication in use? Do they see some rotation and friction/rubbing whenever the rear suspension moves? If so, talc or no, how they can last.....don't they just abrade away?

3.) Camber adjustment. One of the posts mentioned that there is so much play in the bolted connection between the spring plate and wheel spindle or diagonal arm that the camber is easily adjusted. How do you know how to set it after this procedure? Are there any alignment shops out there willing to dicker with setting rear wheel camber on something like this (sounds like lots of trial and error)? Do you just put is back together blind and hope it's close enough?

4.) Any estimate on time for the whole job (not counting soaking the bolts before disassembly)

Thanks!
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cdennisg
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had thought of doing this exact same write up of the procedure after doing the adjustment to my 68, but I never did. Thanks for getting this up on here with great pics.

I will answer the questions above as best as I can.

#1. Yes, effectively you are measuring the angle of the torsion bar/springplate when at rest. Turning the torsion to a different spline location and reassembling all the parts is effectively adding more preload to the torsion which in turn raises the rear of the bus.

#2. The talc is to lubricate the rubber for reassembly. If you try to stuff all those parts together without the talc, the rubber has too much traction against all the surrounding surfaces, and it is a real PITA. It can be difficult enough with everything properly dusted/lubed. I suppose it does help lubricate the bushings after assembly, but I am not sure how long it would actually last.

#3. Camber can be adjusted once the bolts are snug, but not tight, by turning the trailing arm (not the springplate) with a large pipe wrench. Try it once, you'll see what moves and how it works. With a level and some calculations, you can set it perfect yourself. Alignment shops should be able to do this for you, too, though they may not want too. Many of them don't want to work on old cars, they aren't as easy and don't make the shop as much money.

#4. Time. After the first time I did it, I could now do both sides in less than two hours I would guess. The first time takes longer because you're not as familiar with everything, and the bolts need to be broken loose, etc. I also have a hoist in my shop, so that helps.

If anyone sees something I wrote that may be in error, please correct me. Let's make this thread as full of correct info as possible.
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patayres
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with cdennisg, although I would recommend lining up the spring plate, trailing arm, and wheel as it was prior to disassembly & rechecking camber with the new donut bushings and torsion bar setting once the vehicle back on the ground... it corrected my camber issue without any rotation/correction of the trailing arm. Rear wheel camber will be different with the vehicle lifted vs. back on the ground.
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great writeup! This is now in my "to do" list.

...and let me recommend an angle meter for .99$ :
http://www.posimotion.com/index.php?page=applications&option=view&item=0

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


patayres, thanks for the 2nd photo

I've disassembled my rear suspension. On my bus when I removed the short bolt in the photo the threads were badly damaged. All 4 bolts (2 each side) were the same. The long bolts with nuts were OK. I've checked the usual VW and bolt suppliers but can't find them anywhere. They are M14X1.5 X 28 mm 10.9, VW part number N 10121.3. Tried my local dealer but the part number did not show up on his computer. Anybody know where to get them?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just go to your local fastener supplier. Make sure you get grade 8 or higher.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joey wrote:
Just go to your local fastener supplier. Make sure you get grade 8 or higher.


look at the bolt head. It will say something like 10.9 or 12.9 on it. That is the metric hardness you have to match plus the diameter and thread. FYI - grade 8 is an English/American standard. Took me some time to figure out the difference as we thing grade 5, 8 etc here.

Try Ken Madsen at Busco or Chris at Busted Bus.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had another thread going about some squeaking / clunking issues on my bus's rear suspension, and I think it may be time for some new donut bushings (or whatever they're called!)

Been hearing the repros are pretty crappy . . . any suggestions?

-Klauss
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it is 10.9 strength as mentioned in my post. This is a rare bolt, at least around here. Most metric bolts available locally are 8.8. Most 14 mm metric bolts are 2 mm thread. Difficult to find a 10.9 strength combined with 1.5 mm thread.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should be able to get them online from a specialty metric fastener supply such as this one:

http://www.fullermetric.com/products/hex/din961_960-10.9hex_head_cap_screw_fine_thread.html

They don't carry a 28mm length but 30mm should be close enough.

Not recommending them specifically, I just got that from googling.
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