Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added)

[WhirledTraveller]

Did this today and this thread was a big help. My bus, an Automatic 1977 Westy, had the "small" bars (26.9mm, painted red). Curious who actually has the thicker bars and if it's worth keeping an eye out for as an upgrade.

A couple pointers... my Android smartphone has a bubble level app I downloaded free. Measures to within 0.1 degree, and seems repeatable to within around 0.2. Worked fine for this purpose as far as I can tell. Also, for putting it back together, once you have the spring plate jacked up to clear the stop the torsion arm resists pounding back in any further. Rather than wack it with a bigger hammer I just put the spring plate cover on without the outer busihing, then torqued it down, which did the trick of pushing it over the stop. Then I took the cover off again and reassembled with the outer bushing in place.

I had to go down two inner and up two outer to get the necessary correction (1'40") degrees). I had been running shocks with helper springs, otherwise my butt sag was fairly extreme.

I went into this with some trepedation but overall it's not that hard, took me 3 hours work and next time could probably do it again in 2.
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1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam.

[SGKent]

we'll have to amend the Bentley to read, ... download the Clinometer App then place your IPhone....
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[WhirledTraveller]

[Sonnenblume]

This thread has given me confidence to fix my issue. That issue is the out of level from left to right. All the talk about older torsion bars getting weaker makes sense to me. I have a '76 Westy with the driver side is 1=1/4" lower than the passengers side. The water tank and stove cabinet are on that side which makes me think the issue is age and over-stressed on the left side.

Question: How many notches would I move the low side to make up the 1-1/4" diff? The right side appears to be OK for height. Should I be concerned about the overall health of the weaker torsion bar?

Inquiring minds would like to know.
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Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
But if you don't, you might deprive us of a really great story!

'76 Westy
Former '71 Westy
Former '71 Bug-Ragtop-Auto
Former '73 Thing

[cdennisg]

[Wildthings]

[Sonnenblume]

[Your lean could also mainly be caused by worn bushings.]

I will replace bushings on both sides...I wondered if that could cause such a stink.

If the torsion bar is "settled" that much (or a portion of the distance) will it show up after all is unbolted and the arm is past the stop? Could I expect that I would see 1-1/4" difference in that unloaded position?

And if they look the same in the relaxed position I would assume the bunched up bushings were my real trouble right?
[/quote]
_________________
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
But if you don't, you might deprive us of a really great story!

'76 Westy
Former '71 Westy
Former '71 Bug-Ragtop-Auto
Former '73 Thing

[Wildthings]

Once you pull the arms past the stops note their positions, yes if the bars have taken a set the angles should be off whether the bushings are good or not.

[cdennisg]

[Tcash]

Rear torsion bar sizes mysteries and disinformation.
VW factory installed the lighter duty torsion bars
Spring Plate Angle/Torsion Bar Adjustment (Pics Added)
Spring Plate Brake Line Cut Out
Torsion Bar Chart
Torsion Bar Grabber
Torsion Bar Adjustment Chart
Torsion bars are Prestressed. Left bar must stay on left and Right bar on right

[mgerdau]

Ok, what got me started was a mystery knock when going over rough roads. I had my wife jump up and down on the rear bumper while I crawled around underneath the bus. I found the knock was coming from the driver's spring plate area. So, using my Bentley manual I proceeded with taking the spring plate cover off, unloading the spring plate, disconnecting and removing the brakes (which were contaminated so needed replaced). I also decided to remove the bearing housing and check the bearings; which needed new seals (which is how the brake shoes became contaminated). When I was prying the spring plate cover off the whole torsion bar came out and turned on me - UGH! So I didn't have any reference marks except for the ones I made on the diagonal arm, spring plate, and bearing housing. Now I'm trying to put the torsion bar and spring plate back in but my marks on the diagonal arm, bearing housing are not lining up. I can get the bearing housing and diagonal arm to line up; which is pretty darn easy but the spring plate isn't lining up. I've played with moving the torsion bar clockwise a couple of splines and the spring plate counter clockwise, I'm getting a reading of 20 degrees but my spring plate is off by 1/8 of an inch to the rear. Any base settings anyone can help me with?

[wcfvw69]

[Tcash]

[kreemoweet]

@mgerdau: Your description is hard to comprehend. The spring plate angle setting should have nothing to do with the spring plate/diag. arm/bearing housing alignment. You DID make
your alignment marks with the spring plate resting on the stop, no? If so, it should be in exactly the same position on the stop no matter what spline adjustment you did (within reason!)
So, put the spring plate on the stop, lift or push down as necessary on the diagonal arm, and of course the bearing housing is free to move in any direction. The only thing hard to move
would be the spring plate, but moving it is not necessary to align those pieces. I also don't understand why you're "playing" with the spring plate adjustment. Once you find the setting that
gives the proper vehicle height, there should be no reason to be messing with it.
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[Amskeptic]

I never bother with marking the spring plate or torsion bar.

I want my 23*, so I just make my 23*.

I don't care if the torsion bar comes out of the inner splines, because it is very easy just to stick it in any old which way, slap the spring plate on with a guess, see how far off it is, reposition from there.

IF YOU HAVE side-to-side variance:

Please check your original spring plate angles as a diagnostic tool BEFORE removing spring plate from torsion bar or torsion bar from vehicle. You want to know if the variance you have spotted is because of spring plate angles or if the diagonal arms / wheel bearing housings are off from side to side.

I have seen enough variability in the position of the diagonal arm/wheel bearing housing on the spring plate to cause up to 1 1/4" difference.

Here's how you can do a quikchek®.

Jack up vehicle until both spring plates are against lower stops and the wheels are just off the ground.
Now your spring plate angles are totally irrelevant, they are both on the stops, right?

Measure the side-to-side angle of your floor with the protractor.

Now measure the side-to-side angle of your bus. Use the lower lip of the engine compartment opening. Adjust side-to-side angle of your bus with the bottle jack up at the front of the car. If you need to lift the left, jack up the left side of the front beam, or vice versa.

Once the bus is at the exact same angle as the floor, and both spring plates are controlled at the exact same angle by virtue of the lower stops, measure the distance of the tire from the floor on each side. They should be within 1/2".

You can *rotate* the wheel bearing housing against the spring plate by a small amount just from the slop of the holes and the bolts. This will not change your camber. If the camber is also off, well hell, here is your chance to rotate the diagonal arm with a pipe wrench, rotate the wheel bearing housing with the lower shock support, and fix everything to equal.

Remember that the toe-out is affected by overall from-to-rear position of diagonal arm/wheel bearing housing in the spring plate slots.
Colin
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www.itinerant-air-cooled.com

[wcfvw69]

Since this is the "stickie" for bus torsion bar adjusting, I thought I'd add what I learned when I replaced the torsion bar bushings on my July 1970 Westphalia camper bus.

The spring plates are not slotted yet on this bus to allow you to slide the hub off w/out disconnecting the steel brake line. Maybe they incorporated the slot in 71'?

This bus had torsion bars that are the small ones installed when it was new which Bentley said it shouldn't have.

The original 45 year old bushings were shot and oblong. It appears to be the case most of the time.

Now, my bus was sitting 1/2" lower on the drivers side rear fender compared to the passenger side rear fender. The drivers side spring plate was 23* when I pulled it off the stop. The passenger side was 24* when it was pulled off the stop.

On the drivers side, I turned the inner torsion bar one notch to lower the spring plate. I then turned the spring plate one notch up. This equated to a 1* change to 24*. I left the passenger side spring plate at 24* and only changed the bushings. Bentley calls for 23* +- 50' for this size torsion bar, so I was good with 24*.

After driving the bus so everything would settle, the rear fenders measured from the ground to the bottom edge of the fender, 23 1/2". Measuring from the ground to the top of the tires rim was 20". The bus has the Westphalia furniture in it though it's empty. It also has just about a full tank of gas in these pictures.

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[vwwestyman]

Trying to decide what to do with my '78s rear suspension.

I adjusted it years back (2004ish?) with a protractor and such.

Now, it seems saggy. I think the TDI motor is heavier and contributing to the problem. Who knows if I got it all correct in 2004, either!

I've read a lot about resetting them with the protractors and all that, but it seems to me that if I set it to an angle, it would end up in a similar situation.

As it sits in the driveway, it is currently resting on the rear bump stops.

Here's pics. I'd like to see other's thoughts on how to go about correcting the ride height.... Measure an angle...? What angle to use this time? Or maybe measure the angle from factory, then adjust up one spline inner and outer? Install a counter-balance on the front? Other ideas?

As a bonus, raising it a touch should kelp keep the radiator out of harm's way a little more!

How she sits.

Passenger side spring plate.

Driver side spring plate.
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[cdennisg]

If you want to raise it an inch, raise it an inch. Don't worry about protractors and angles. Just don't exceed the recommended angle of you axle/CV joint combo. If you are just looking to level out the bus stance, you wont reach the point of CV angle issues.

Once you have it jacked up, wheel off, and spring plate ready to be adjusted, measure from the very lowest point of the spring plate to the ground. Adjust however many inner/outer spline combinations you need to get that measurement to change just a little less than an inch. Put it all back together and check out your work.

The main thing is, when making that measurement to the ground, make sure the spring plate is not resting on the bottoms stop of the torsion housing. Just hold it snugly in place (inner rubber snubber intact) while you make the measurement. You might need a third hand projecting from your forehead, or an assistant. The whole torsion bar/snubber/spring plate may not be full seated into its home, but the splines will be locked in and the whole thing will be centered in the torsion tube.

If I had one apart right now, I would take a ton of photos. maybe next time...
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nothing

[Wildthings]

Here is my homemade gauge to set the torsion bar angle. It just fits against the frame and you eyeball the angle of the torsion bar against the angle cut in the end of the board. The cutouts in the board is just to clear obstacles on the frame rail. The pictured board may actually be for my T181 verse a T2 as they are very similar except for the cutouts. Having a gauge like this means you don't have to level the bus or go through the rest of that rigmarole.

[SGKent]

where you may get into trouble is to add more tension you may have trouble pushing the spring plate back up. Do you know if this bus started life as a Westphalia camper or is it a kombi wagon someone converted to a camper? The thickness of the torsion bars differs between a camper and a kombi wagon. Also the settings are slightly different.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin