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babysnakes
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Joined: August 19, 2008
Posts: 7106
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 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| slug1600 wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| [i]3 - The reason you cut or change the input shaft is because if you don't it will bottom out inside the crank and push on it. This will eventually damage the thrust bearing and cause engine failure. |
Please clarify - does changing the input shaft for this conversion only matter for 091 matched with Type 1 engine? or will an 002 bellhousing on an 091 trans bottom out the longer input shaft in a Type4 engine too?
I've put a few hundred miles on a 2.0 type 4 matched with 002 bellhousing/starter/nosecone and 091 trans body on my 72 westy. Only change is the shifter is a bit closer to the seat. I assumed it'd either work or not, or is more long term damage the issue?
Thanks |
Does not seem you have a problem. The input shaft needs to be shorter when you put a 1600 engine with a t-4 trans. 002 trans from '68-71 had a short shaft, the '72 on had the longer shaft for the T-4. If you are running a T-4 you should have no problem.
Last edited by babysnakes on Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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slug1600
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Joined: October 08, 2007
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Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks. |
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1967250s
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Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 2137
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| I had a 091 in my '72 with a 1700cc. RPM's were lower at highway speeds, but lots of shifting and the 3-4 shift was too tall. All I did was drill the shift rod farther back about 10mm to get the rod to shift, used the 1700 starter, can't remeber if I cut the input shaft, and had to ( yess, I know this is wrong) put some nuts in front of the clutch cable nut to shorten it up. I think a later clutch cable is shorter?? Anyways, I've gone back to my 002, since I now have correct larger size tires, and am much happier with everything set up as it should be and shifting at the right rpm's. And I love my RA08's. |
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Red Fau Veh
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Joined: September 07, 2012
Posts: 3037
Location: Prescott Az.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| 1967250s wrote: |
| had to ( yes, I know this is wrong) put some nuts in front of the clutch cable nut to shorten it up. I think a later clutch cable is shorter?? |
The trick we used was to put two washers on the end of the bowden tube where it sits in the holder on the transmission. This gives arch and length to the tube which in turn makes the cable shorter at the clutch arm. 
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| 1967250s wrote: |
| I had a 091 in my '72 with a 1700cc. RPM's were lower at highway speeds, but lots of shifting and the 3-4 shift was too tall. All I did was drill the shift rod farther back about 10mm to get the rod to shift, used the 1700 starter, can't remeber if I cut the input shaft, and had to ( yess, I know this is wrong) put some nuts in front of the clutch cable nut to shorten it up. I think a later clutch cable is shorter?? Anyways, I've gone back to my 002, since I now have correct larger size tires, and am much happier with everything set up as it should be and shifting at the right rpm's. And I love my RA08's. |
smart man |
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918griffin
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Joined: February 08, 2013
Posts: 39
Location: Glendale AZ
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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So to be clear, in order to install a 2.0 liter with an 091 transaxle into a 72 Bay...
I need to use an 002 bell housing, cut or replace the input shaft (with an 002), use a flywheel and clutch smaller than a 228mm, use a starter for the 002 and drill a new hole 10mm in front of the original hole on the shift rod?
I've read and re-read all the information and now I am at the point that I have myself confused (not that difficult of a task). Thanks |
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skills@eurocarsplus
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Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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it *should* be a direct swap in a 72. you may need to fiddle with the shift linkage some, but the late 002's (afaik) have the same input shaft length as a 091
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old DKP driver
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:26 pm Post subject: 091 & 2.0 in a 72 |
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No confusion
091 with 091 bell housing and starter.
228 flywheel on 2.0 engine.
Modify front shift rod 1/2 in.
Done
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918griffin
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Location: Glendale AZ
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome! Thanks so much  |
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Stray Catalyst
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Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 534
Location: New England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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69 Westy, 1600dp, 34pict3, 009.
If I'm understandi what I've read, I can convert an 091 by using an 002 bell housing and shortening or replacing the input shaft. But I've got a stock 1600 motor, and I'd still like to be able to eventually reach highway speed.
Fom the Ratwell site, it looks like 76 to 78 'A' had a similar gear ratio to the 002 I'm replacing. Am I overlooking something, or would that be the ideal trans to replace my 002?
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bigbore
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Posts: 3297
Location: Wasilla Alaska
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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If you have a stock engine I wouldn't mess with a 091. just stay with the stock 002.
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Stray Catalyst
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Location: New England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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I have several transmissions available to me. I have two broken 002's, but there are other transmissions (including at least one six rib, if I remember correctly) that I can have for the asking. If I go through the difficulty of converting one, will the bus be too sluggish and/or geared poorly when paired with a stock 1600dp?
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196? Laser 917 Kit Car
1982 Vanagon Westy Diesel 1.6NA
1974 Sun Bug, lowered std Beetle
1969 Westy, mostly stock, the Road Trip bus. |
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Very. early bays have a r&p of 5.375 meant for the little under-powered 1600.
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madmike
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Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:00 am Post subject: |
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I thinking about a 5rib with the 4:86 R&P and a warmed up 1600? should be enough motor (40idf's, W110, headers) to pull that gear?
I'm always lookin for 5th on the highway 
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Pretty sure that the difference between a 5 rib and a 6 rib is about 150 rpm on the freeway.
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bigbore
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:48 am Post subject: |
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You can't just look at the R/P ratio for your finale RPM/road speed you have to know the 4th gear ratio also in the 5rib R/P is higher then the 6 rib but the 4th gear is lower then the 6 rib.
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dirtylawnchair
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Joined: January 26, 2004
Posts: 1234
Location: Bradenton FL
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:12 am Post subject: |
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6 rib 091 trans "091 301 103"
4th gear = stock 0.88
R&P = Stock 4.571
Overall in 4th = 4.02
205/65r15 rear tires = 80.1 circumference in inches
3500 RPM = 66.04 MPH
or
65MPH = 3444.85 RPM
70MPH = 3709.84 RPM
Please correct me if I am wrong on my figures above.
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Brian
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Tcash
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Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:37 am Post subject: 002 to 091, 091 to 002 information |
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To link to this thread
| Code: |
| [url=http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8147746#8147746]002 to 091, 091 to 002 information[/url] |
The 002 or 091 Bell housing can be used on either transmission. Although the starter has to stay with the appropriate Bell housing.
002 Bell housing = SR15 or SR17 Starter
091 Bell housing = SR87 Starter
Both Input shafts (Rear drive shafts)(clutch shaft) carry the 091 part number and can be used in either the 002 or 091 Transmissions.
So to simplify things, let refer to them as the
Short snout Type I, Input shaft, (287MM OVERALL LENGTH)
Long snout Type IV, Input shaft, (298MM OVERALL LENGTH)
Converted, with 11mm cut off Long snout .
So let's break it down
Type I engine, 002 Bell housing = Short snout input shaft, SR15 or SR17 Starter
Type I engine, 091 Bell housing = Long snout input shaft, SR87 Starter
Type I engine, 002 Bell housing = Converted (11mm) input shaft, SR15 or SR17 Starter
Type IV engine, 002 Bell housing = Long snout input shaft, SR15 or SR17 Starter
Type IV engine, 091 Bell housing = Long snout input shaft, SR87 Starter
Shift Linkage modifications
002 Trans in a 1976-79 = Cut and extend front shift linkage by 10mm
091 Trans in a 1968-75 = Drill a new hole for the Coupling set screw 10mm toward the pipe bowl, to shorten the shift linkage by 10mm
| ratwell wrote: |
| VWDruid wrote: |
I just Pmed Aeromech this i'll just post for the rest.
looking at this: http://www.type2.com/library/identifi/modvar.htm
VW never ran a 002 with a 2.0 but the 002 guts may be different: http://www.type2.com/library/drivetra/091data.htm
1976 Chassis Number 216-2000-001 - 216-2300-000
Engine Number CJ-0-000-001 -
GD-0-000-001 -
1970 cc, 67 HP @ 4200
Transmission: 4-speed manual, 091 CP
3-speed automatic, 010 NF
Fuel System: Bosch L-Jetronic AFC Electronic Fuel Injection
Imported to U.S. 20,825
Total Produced:
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http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FAQ/FAQContent.html
4.1 Transmission Swaps:
Transmissions swaps are probably the most asked question. VW engineered in a lot of compatibilty but a few snags exist. First the facts:
* 68-75: 002 transmission and Bosch SR15 starter (can also use SR17 for the automatic trans self supported pinion drive starter. No bushing required)
* 76-79: 091 transmisssion and Bosch SR87 starter
Starter id = Which clutch cover/bell housing you have
* 68-71: 200mm flywheel & clutch
* 72-74.5: 210mm flywheel & clutch
* 74.5-75: 215mm flywheel & clutch (from VIN 214 2 125001)
* 76-79: 228mm flywheel & clutch
Vanagons also used the 228mm clutch (NB: from January to March of 1983 Volkswagen put a 215mm clutch and PP in the Vanagon but decided they had to switch back).
Now you know what came from where, what can you swap around? In general if you have a 2.0L engine with a 228mm clutch and pressure plate it will only fit the 091 bellhousing. This means to use an earlier transmission with the 228mm flywheel you'll need the later bellhousing otherwise you'll need to use a smaller clutch and pressure plate. The 228mm flywheel only engages the SR87 starter which complicates swapping (the earlier starter won't reach the flywheel teeth because of the bellhousing...)
Note: the starter flange on the 091 is 10mm wider. Thus spacing the starter 10mm further from the flywheel. This makes it necessary to use the SR87 starter with the longer starter pinion drive gear.
The 091 input shaft is (11mm) slightly longer than the shaft in the 002 transmission used in 72-75 buses but because the 091 bell housing is also longer, the same length of input shaft extends forward from the edge of the bell housing and is therefore compatible with earlier models.
091 311 105 A, INPUT SHAFT ,1968-71 TYPE 2 BUS WITH A TYPE I ENGINE, 002 BELL HOUSING, , SHORT SNOUT (287MM OVERALL LENGTH)
091 311 105, INPUT SHAFT, 1972-79 TYPE 2 BUS WITH A TYPE IV ENGINE, 002 OR 091 BELL HOUSING, , LONG SNOUT (298MM OVERALL LENGTH)
298mm-287mm= 11mm - So the Short Snout Type I engine input shaft is Exactly 11mm shorter than the Long Snout Type IV input shaft
The yellow workshop manual says that the distance is 27mm for 74-79 models (no 72-73 data in the book unfortunately).
In other words a Type 4 engine will bolt to any 72-79 transmission but you have to swap flywheels components and the starter.
1968-71 Input shaft protrusion from face of Bell housing = 9/16" (14.2875mm)
002 input shaft protrusion from face of bell housing
1973-74 Input shaft protrusion from face of Bell housing = NO DATA?
1974-79 Input shaft protrusion from the face of the Bell housing = 27mm (1.06299")
| Quote: |
quote ratwell
The yellow workshop manual says that the distance is 27mm for 74-79 models |
If you swap an older bellhousing onto the 091 in order to use a smaller clutch disc, you will have to swap the 002 input shaft onto the 091. To do this, remove the bellhousing, take the circlip out of the groove and slide the gear and the circlip up the shaft so you can turn the shaft to undo the stud holding it on.
Changing input shaft.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7987475#7987475
Because the 091 bellhousing mounting tabs are 10mm longer the 76-79 cases have longer studs on the bottom. To use the 091 on a 72-75 case, you must install the longer studs.
Note: 002 clutch cover mounting tabs are about 44mm (1 3/4"). Measure one of the bottom clutch cover mounting tabs. If it is about 1 3/4" (44mm) the clutch cover is a 002.
Note: 091 clutch cover mounting tabs are about 54mm (2 1/8"), 10mm wider than the 002
However, the 091 transmission as a whole is about an inch longer than the 002. This means that the transmission sits further forward in the bus. If you use the 091 transmission in an earlier bus then the shiftrod will be angled backwards slightly. If you use the earlier transmission on a later bus then the shiftrod will hit the parking brake.
You may have to swap shift rod parts in order to get the shifter into the correct position. The shift rod changed in 74 so you can borrow parts from 74-75 and 76-79 setups to help accomodate the change of length of the transmission as well as make your own mods.
The input shaft of the 68-71 transmission is shorter than the later models by 11mm because it needs to engage the pilot bearing sitting in the gland nut of the Type I engine. If you use this transmission with a Type IV engine the input shaft will not engage the pilot bearing properly and will chew up the needles. The workaround for this is to machine the flywheel opening in order to press the pilot bearing into the flywheel instead of the crankshaft.
On page 435 of the latest edition of Muir, John Hilgerdt recounts the story of a 75 tranny that chewed up the pilot bearing of a 78 bus. There is no good reason for this because the 228mm flywheel won't fit a 002 bellhousing so a compatible flywheel must have been used.
I can only speculate as to what parts they actually used because the input shaft is the same length and the pilot bearing is the same distance from tip of the input shaft among Type 4 flywheels. What seems more probable is that they used a 68-71 tranny but since the 68-71 flywheel won't bolt onto any Type 4 engine, they used an incompatible flywheel so the parts mismatch to make it "work" was horrendous!
Using the 72-79 transmission with a Type I engine necessitates swapping the input shaft (and bellhousing in the case of the 091) because it's too long and the shaft will bottom out in the gland nut.
To remove the transmission undo the following:
* undo clutch cable
* remove backup light switch wiring
* uncouple the shift rod from the nose cone
* unbolt transmission ground strap
* remove starter or disconnect all wires
* disconnect the axles by undoing the cvjoint at the flange on each side
Edits
Tcash
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| rustbus wrote: |
I found the 091 trans is exactly 10mm longer.
i compared front shift rods, the later 091 front shift rod is 10mm shorter to accommodate the longer trans.
I simply drilled a new hole 10mm further forward to connect the front rod to the long rear rod section
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| babysnakes wrote: |
| my 74 tangerine westy wrote: |
| will a 091 input shaft work in a late 3 rib 002 without modifying? |
First, why do you want to do this? Are you mating a later engine with the 002? IIRC the late 002(1972+) input shaft is about 1/2" longer than the earlier ones. |
Type I 002 input shaft.
| aeromech wrote: |
| mranker wrote: |
OK engine out and the input shaft clears the mating surface of the transaxle by 9/16".
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I called Eric over at Transworks this morning. He measured an input shaft and came up with the same length you have, 9/16. Looks like you are ok with the one you have. |
| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Yes the input(mainshaft) shaft needs approx 3/8in cut of end where it slide into gland nut. If left full length it can bottom in the end of crankshaft.
Easy way to do with out taking apart is a 3in cutoff wheel in a die grinder. After cutting, round edge so it will slide into gland nut.
091 trans from front edge to edge of bell housing is aprrox 3/8in longer than a 002 trans.
091 bell housing is deeper does require longer lower studs and upper bolts.
10mm longer for studs and bolts then a 002.
You have to use a 091 starter with 091 bell housing. Welding and maching starter area can be done for use of a starter for a 002. Not cheap unless you do it yourself.
200mm clutch and pressure plate can be use with 091 bell housing and 091 starter. Use a pressure plate than has NO DONUT.
Depending on how trans is mounted will determine on how sheet metal on engine fits to body. |
002 091 Bell Housing Compared
002 091 Compared
| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
| Where difference in length between an 002 and a 091 is the gear carrier itself. Because the gears in the transmission part of transaxle are wider, gear carrier is approx. 7.5mm longer. |
002 091 Gear Carrier Compared
002 091 Nose cone compared
Found this and added on 7/15/16
091 trans is exactly 10mm longer
Last edited by Tcash on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:21 pm Post subject: 002 091 input shafts |
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This is odd. Weddle list #2 the Main drive shafts rear, as follows.
091-311-105A for '68-'71 VW TYPE I ENGINE
091-311-105 for '72-'79 VW TYPE IV ENGINE
https://weddleindustries.com/product/1000954
https://weddleindustries.com/product/1000951
The parts manual list them the opposite way, which makes sense with the suffix (A) representing a change in the part. Which in this case was making the snout 11mm longer.
091-311-105 '68-'71 VW TYPE I ENGINE
091-311-105A '72-'79 VW TYPE IV ENGINE
Any information would be appreciated?
Thank you
Tcash |
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