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Camshaft selection for a stock '69 1500SP Bug
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doncoque
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Camshaft selection for a stock '69 1500SP Bug Reply with quote

Hello Guys,

I'm sitting here with a dilema on which Camshaft to run on my 69 bug. It is completely stock (with a H30/31 carb. with an 110 main jet for the moment).

The application is a stock, daily driven bug where gas has poor octane (around 81) and the air is pretty thin (2800 meters above sealevel). I won't be doing any valve/head work other than the usual overhaul maintenance.

I want to keep the engine as stock as possible. (My bug is a classic for me). But since I need to replace the Camshaft because the rivets are starting to get loose. I wanted to know what Cam should I go, since I see it difficult to get a decent stock cam (mainly brazilian or chinesse made around here). I also look to improve a little the performance of my bug when I take it to long climbs in the highway (yeah! we have steep climbs in highways here.) without sacrificing MPG much. Also, I wouldn't to increase the pollution levels of my exhaust too much. (Don't know if that's possible with a performance cam).

My options so far are: Engle FK-41, W-100, Scat C20 (or maybe C25), and Web 86. I think that the FK-41 would give me the torque I need for the climbs, but I don't know how would it treat my valve train. Would it last? compared to a stock cam? Some people in other posts claim the w100 is easier on the valve train than the fk41. I also thin that the 86 is milder that the engle, and similar to the C20.

I look for opinions and, if possible, explanations to know if i'm right or i'm just asking the impossible. I'll appreciate any help!. Wink
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DarthWeber
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Camshaft selection for a stock '69 1500SP Bug Reply with quote

doncoque wrote:

My options so far are: Engle FK-41, W-100, Scat C20 (or maybe C25), and Web 86. I think that the FK-41 would give me the torque I need for the climbs, but I don't know how would it treat my valve train. Would it last? compared to a stock cam? Some people in other posts claim the w100 is easier on the valve train than the fk41. I also thin that the 86 is milder that the engle, and similar to the C20.


Don't even consider any of those for a stock motor. Either use a stock cam or, at most, the CB Performance Cheater cam. The Cheater Cam might be what you're looking for, read about it here:

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1244
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doncoque
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you care to explain why? Sorry to ask, but I'm not a specialist in engines. Thanks for the time and help.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doncoque wrote:
Would you care to explain why? Sorry to ask, but I'm not a specialist in engines. Thanks for the time and help.


Sure, any cam with more duration than stock will move the powerband up in the rev range. Not necessarily a lot, as with the Engle 100 or Web 86 for example, but when you move the power up in the rev range you lose it in the lower rev range. The VW motor must be looked at as a system of parts that act as an air pump. The biggest restriction to making power are the stock heads. VW designed them very conservatively with small ports and valves and they function perfectly fine with the other stock parts around them. Now, if you change a part it usually has an effect on the other parts and the overall way the motor functions. In your case a cam change may seem to be the way to achieve more torque, and normally it is by increasing the motor's ability to breathe better by porting the heads, possibly adding bigger valves, adding dual carbs and an exhaust header. Then the motor will be able to utilize the extra breathing capacity offered by the cam. If you want to keep your motor basically stock, especially the stock carb, heads and exhaust, then adding a bigger cam isn't the best thing to do. When I started to modify my original stock 1600DP motor the first thing I did was add a header, then dual Kadron carbs and ratio rockers, all to make it breathe better with just the stock cam. Now don't get me wrong, you can add a cam but it's better to be conservative when going with stock parts. It's very easy to overcam a motor, even a high performance one. That's why I recommended the Cheater cam from CB Performance. It was specifically developed by them to meet emissions standards AND improve performance at the same time, it's just a little warmer than stock. BTW, the FK series cams are harder on the valvetrain and lifter bosses of the case because of the quicker ramps on the cam lobes.
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doncoque
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Darth for you detailed explanation. It cleared up some of my doubts.

Taking into account your recommendation, I checked again the web cam site since i noticed the offered a stock cam. (http://www.webcamshafts.com/pages/automobile/volkswagen/install_data/tc_000670_001611.html). It is around $100 just the cam w/o shipping. And I see that the CB Cheater cam is also "Cheaper". What would you recommend. Should I go stock with the web stock, or try the Cheater? What would I gain and loose if I choose the cheater?

Other thing, I guess I must change the lifters no matter what choice I make, but do I need to change the push rods, springs, keepers and retainers too? What kind should I use? Could I get a "completer kit" from CIP1 with single springs? http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5260-S And new stock push rods?

What would you think it would happen if I put the web 86 or the W100? Would I trash my engine and not get any improvement? Or I'll be just wasting my time and money?

Thanks!
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DarthWeber
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would go with the CB Cheater Cam and a set of their Lightweight Racing lifters. As it says on their website, the cheater cam produces low speed torque that greatly improves drive-ability, passing power and top speed. I believe that is the cam that HotVW's used in their 1745cc mileage motor and they were surprised at how well it performed on the dyno and in real world driving. If you look at the cam specs you'll see there is only a small difference in duration, 222 vs. 214 degrees, and this conservative increase is what allows the cam to work well with stock or near stock motors. The cheater cam gives you almost 0.100" more lift at the valve. The increase in valve lift allows better breathing (within the conservative parameters of the motor) and more torque production.

The CB lightweight racing lifters are quality pieces and have been used and recommended by many people on here. Since you are going with other stock components then your stock pushrods should be OK. What I would do, since I like to source as many parts from one place as possible, is contact CB, tell them your plans for the motor and that you want to try the cheater cam, and ask for their recommendation on valve springs, keepers and retainers. I would go with at least new stock springs, they may recommend HD springs. Tell them you intend to keep the stock intake and exhaust and how you plan to drive it, low grade gasoline, high altitude, etc. See what they say and follow their advice.

I think if you went with the Web 86 or Engle 100 you would lose some low end torque and you wouldn't be able to take advantage of either cams better breathing in the mid to upper RPM range because of the limitations of the stock intake, heads and exhaust. Now if you went with small dual carbs, a good 3 angle valve job, possible mild porting and a header, then I'd say go for the 100 or 86 cam as that would be a better combo. You wouldn't "trash" your stock motor with either of these cams but you would not get the improvement that you want. With stock components the cheater cam, with it's conservative increase in duration and lift, is a better match with the stock combo you want to run. Remember, it is very easy to over-cam a VW motor.
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modok
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed!! cb cheater for sure.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 for the Cheater Cam.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im also for the 2230 or 2231 cam. I used to install Weber Cams vesion of the 2231 in my stock rebuilt 1600 dual port engines. The idle was smooth with a hint of exhaust note and passed emisions with flying colors. The power difference was day and night. For the single port engine the 2230 would be my choice. Even though these are mild cams the CB lightweeight lifter would be very cheap insurance just like oil with ZDDP in it.
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doncoque
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you guys! Very Happy I think I would go with the Cheater Cam. I'll try to contact CB by email and see what would they recommend for my motor with that cam.

Once I get it, and put it inside my bug, I'll let you know how it went. But I think it would be ready in a month or two. Wink
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doncoque
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just called CB Performance. I explained them That I had the completely stock motor, and that you guys recommended me the cheater cam. I asked them if I needed anything else from them to run the camshaft in my bug. They said that the camshaft was designed to work with stock parts, that it would run fine with stock lifters, springs, push rods, etc.

Now, as I'll be rebuilding the engine with stock parts that I can find locally, I would like your opinion on what parts would be best for me to get from CB regarding the camshaft and valvetrain. I think it would be best to get new lifters with the camshaft. Since I'll be buying them anyway, which ones should I buy, to get more miles out of my engine without having to split the case again?

Thanks for all your comments. They are much appreciated.
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grimace007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if your using a cb cam use cb lifters
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Hey It is The Samba where well thought out rational answers can take a while and getting side tracked is normal. I was just lucky this time. Smile

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No one has any personal responsibility these days. This country is sue happy. Intelligence is no longer a requirement, just an accessory.
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doncoque
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grimace007 wrote:
if your using a cb cam use cb lifters

Which CB lifters would you recommend for my application?? They have the 28mm or 30mm lightweight lifters ($103), the 31mm Big Foot ($30) and stock lifters ($23).
I could expend the $103 of the lightweight lifters if I could see the difference in performance or in longevity. What do you think?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would use the CB 28mm Ultralight lifters, P/N 1537. Any reduction in weight in the valvetrain is a plus and since the cheater is a mild cam you won't need the bigger diameter 30mm ones. I know they said stock valve springs will work well with that cam however, were it me, I would use a set of HD single springs just as cheap insurance for reliability and longevity. Think about it, you'll be going from about 0.324" lift to 0.394" lift, not an insignificant amount. You can use stock springs but they will wear out faster when compared to the HD springs which were designed for higher lift and valve acceleration rates. Of course, having said that, you would then need solid rocker shafts and get rid of the stock wavy washers. Remember it's a total system and it's difficult to replace one part without affecting the others. At a minimum go with the cheater cam and CB lifters but for maximum reliability and longevity I'd also get HD springs and solid rocker shafts. Sorry this doesn't really give you a straight answer but just thought you'd like to know the whole story before you buy.
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doncoque
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Darth for your recommendation. Taking into account all your recommendations, and my not so big budget, I'll tell you what I've decided to do so that you can tell me if it's ok for starters, or if I'm doing a complete mistake. Smile

I review all the information with a friend that has some experience rebuilding vw engines and he told me to get the following, taking some of your recommendations:
- CB Cheater Cam
- A "cam completer kit" from CIP1 http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5260%2DS&CartID=1
- Some engine moly-lube. http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5264&CartID=8

He told me that, as CB told us that the cam works fine with stock components, I should get that performance kit at a good price just to be on the safe side.

If the solid rockers are a must for this setup my friend is recommending, could this set work -> http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5238. I just prefer to get as many parts as I can from CIP1, since my friend has a dealer discount there, and since I live out of the US i have to deal with custom taxes and more shipping charges.

I appreciate your time and kindness for sharing your knowledge.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, that cam completer kit seems like it would work well for you. It doesn't say in the ad but if those are stock valve springs then you probably won't need the solid rocker shaft kit. However if you want to err on the side of reliability and longevity I would see if the completer kit can be had with HD springs and I would go with this rocker shaft kit:

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13%2D21%2D2309

I'm not a fan of the slide on spacers on the shaft, you want the shaft to be machined from a solid piece. These cost a little more but are better for reliability. I'm not a big fan of EMPI parts but if that's all they have then just be careful and check the shafts well before you install, make sure you have proper clearance between the rockers and shafts.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That should work. Your only problem may be hit or miss quality from AC Enterprises. Have your friend take a good look at the parts before shipping them once they are out of the packaging perhaps they will qualify as used?
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doncoque
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth, I check the kit and the springs included are these http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails_Popup.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5311. So yes, they are HD single springs. That means I should use solid rockers, right?

I checked, and CB has some shafts that are cheaper thatn the EMPI http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=113. But they look like they have the sliding spacer you mentioned. Do I still go with the EMPI extra thick, one piece, shafts?

If I change the rocker shafts, would they work fine with my stock rocker arms?
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doncoque
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perrib wrote:
That should work. Your only problem may be hit or miss quality from AC Enterprises. Have your friend take a good look at the parts before shipping them once they are out of the packaging perhaps they will qualify as used?


I believe you refer to the fact that I have to import the parts to my country. I'm not sure what you mean, but I can't import "used" parts. It is prohibited by law here.

What do you mean by AC Enterprises?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doncoque wrote:
Darth, I check the kit and the springs included are these http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails_Popup.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5311. So yes, they are HD single springs. That means I should use solid rockers, right?

I checked, and CB has some shafts that are cheaper thatn the EMPI http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=113. But they look like they have the sliding spacer you mentioned. Do I still go with the EMPI extra thick, one piece, shafts?

If I change the rocker shafts, would they work fine with my stock rocker arms?


Yes, with the HD springs I'd use the solid one piece rocker shafts from EMPI but, again, just check carefully to make sure your clearances are in spec. The stock rocker arms 'should' fit perfectly but with EMPI parts you have to check, check, check to make sure. By the way, did I mention to make sure to check clearances to make sure the shafts fit all the parts OK? Anyway, with the cheater cam, cam kit with HD springs and solid rocker shafts it should make for a nice addition to your motor.
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