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gooser Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2008 Posts: 766 Location: danville virginia
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:16 am Post subject: |
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very good. by all means keep us updated. |
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doncoque Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Quito, Ecuador
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:30 am Post subject: |
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Ok guys. Just got the parts this week. I also got the copy of the bently manual for the entire process.
I'm looking forward to the overhaul process during the following weeks. I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks! |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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You need to get a copy of the Bentley VW manual for your year car. It has all the clearance specs and torques for nuts and bolts. For the rocker arms themselves the ID is 18.00 - 18.02mm with a wear limit of 18.04mm. The rocker shafts should have a diameter of 17.99 - 17.97mm with a wear limit of 17.95mm. The bolts on the end of the rocker shafts will have a torque spec to tighten. |
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doncoque Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Quito, Ecuador
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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DarthWeber wrote: |
... just check carefully to make sure your clearances are in spec... ...make sure to check clearances to make sure the shafts fit all the parts OK? |
Could you explain to what clearences you refere exactly. Sorry to ask, but I'm just a newbe when it comes to engines.
DarthWeber wrote: |
Anyway, with the cheater cam, cam kit with HD springs and solid rocker shafts it should make for a nice addition to your motor. |
I'm sure it will. I will document the upgrade process and post a link here once it is done. |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, with the HD springs I'd use the solid one piece rocker shafts from EMPI but, again, just check carefully to make sure your clearances are in spec. The stock rocker arms 'should' fit perfectly but with EMPI parts you have to check, check, check to make sure. By the way, did I mention to make sure to check clearances to make sure the shafts fit all the parts OK? Anyway, with the cheater cam, cam kit with HD springs and solid rocker shafts it should make for a nice addition to your motor. |
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doncoque Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Quito, Ecuador
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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perrib wrote: |
That should work. Your only problem may be hit or miss quality from AC Enterprises. Have your friend take a good look at the parts before shipping them once they are out of the packaging perhaps they will qualify as used? |
I believe you refer to the fact that I have to import the parts to my country. I'm not sure what you mean, but I can't import "used" parts. It is prohibited by law here.
What do you mean by AC Enterprises? |
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doncoque Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Quito, Ecuador
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perrib Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2004 Posts: 3402 Location: Chandler, Az
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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That should work. Your only problem may be hit or miss quality from AC Enterprises. Have your friend take a good look at the parts before shipping them once they are out of the packaging perhaps they will qualify as used? |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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OK, that cam completer kit seems like it would work well for you. It doesn't say in the ad but if those are stock valve springs then you probably won't need the solid rocker shaft kit. However if you want to err on the side of reliability and longevity I would see if the completer kit can be had with HD springs and I would go with this rocker shaft kit:
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13%2D21%2D2309
I'm not a fan of the slide on spacers on the shaft, you want the shaft to be machined from a solid piece. These cost a little more but are better for reliability. I'm not a big fan of EMPI parts but if that's all they have then just be careful and check the shafts well before you install, make sure you have proper clearance between the rockers and shafts. |
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doncoque Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Quito, Ecuador
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Darth for your recommendation. Taking into account all your recommendations, and my not so big budget, I'll tell you what I've decided to do so that you can tell me if it's ok for starters, or if I'm doing a complete mistake.
I review all the information with a friend that has some experience rebuilding vw engines and he told me to get the following, taking some of your recommendations:
- CB Cheater Cam
- A "cam completer kit" from CIP1 http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5260%2DS&CartID=1
- Some engine moly-lube. http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5264&CartID=8
He told me that, as CB told us that the cam works fine with stock components, I should get that performance kit at a good price just to be on the safe side.
If the solid rockers are a must for this setup my friend is recommending, could this set work -> http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5238. I just prefer to get as many parts as I can from CIP1, since my friend has a dealer discount there, and since I live out of the US i have to deal with custom taxes and more shipping charges.
I appreciate your time and kindness for sharing your knowledge. |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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I would use the CB 28mm Ultralight lifters, P/N 1537. Any reduction in weight in the valvetrain is a plus and since the cheater is a mild cam you won't need the bigger diameter 30mm ones. I know they said stock valve springs will work well with that cam however, were it me, I would use a set of HD single springs just as cheap insurance for reliability and longevity. Think about it, you'll be going from about 0.324" lift to 0.394" lift, not an insignificant amount. You can use stock springs but they will wear out faster when compared to the HD springs which were designed for higher lift and valve acceleration rates. Of course, having said that, you would then need solid rocker shafts and get rid of the stock wavy washers. Remember it's a total system and it's difficult to replace one part without affecting the others. At a minimum go with the cheater cam and CB lifters but for maximum reliability and longevity I'd also get HD springs and solid rocker shafts. Sorry this doesn't really give you a straight answer but just thought you'd like to know the whole story before you buy. |
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doncoque Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Quito, Ecuador
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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grimace007 wrote: |
if your using a cb cam use cb lifters |
Which CB lifters would you recommend for my application?? They have the 28mm or 30mm lightweight lifters ($103), the 31mm Big Foot ($30) and stock lifters ($23).
I could expend the $103 of the lightweight lifters if I could see the difference in performance or in longevity. What do you think? |
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grimace007 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2006 Posts: 2673 Location: swampville, florida
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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if your using a cb cam use cb lifters _________________ Brian
68 sedan
Dallas Air Coolers
perrib wrote: |
Hey It is The Samba where well thought out rational answers can take a while and getting side tracked is normal. I was just lucky this time. |
cr@M wrote: |
No one has any personal responsibility these days. This country is sue happy. Intelligence is no longer a requirement, just an accessory. |
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doncoque Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Quito, Ecuador
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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I just called CB Performance. I explained them That I had the completely stock motor, and that you guys recommended me the cheater cam. I asked them if I needed anything else from them to run the camshaft in my bug. They said that the camshaft was designed to work with stock parts, that it would run fine with stock lifters, springs, push rods, etc.
Now, as I'll be rebuilding the engine with stock parts that I can find locally, I would like your opinion on what parts would be best for me to get from CB regarding the camshaft and valvetrain. I think it would be best to get new lifters with the camshaft. Since I'll be buying them anyway, which ones should I buy, to get more miles out of my engine without having to split the case again?
Thanks for all your comments. They are much appreciated. |
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doncoque Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Quito, Ecuador
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you guys! I think I would go with the Cheater Cam. I'll try to contact CB by email and see what would they recommend for my motor with that cam.
Once I get it, and put it inside my bug, I'll let you know how it went. But I think it would be ready in a month or two. |
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perrib Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2004 Posts: 3402 Location: Chandler, Az
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Im also for the 2230 or 2231 cam. I used to install Weber Cams vesion of the 2231 in my stock rebuilt 1600 dual port engines. The idle was smooth with a hint of exhaust note and passed emisions with flying colors. The power difference was day and night. For the single port engine the 2230 would be my choice. Even though these are mild cams the CB lightweeight lifter would be very cheap insurance just like oil with ZDDP in it. |
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James Arredondo Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005 Posts: 64 Location: Paso Robles, CA.
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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+1 for the Cheater Cam. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26785 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed!! cb cheater for sure. |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I would go with the CB Cheater Cam and a set of their Lightweight Racing lifters. As it says on their website, the cheater cam produces low speed torque that greatly improves drive-ability, passing power and top speed. I believe that is the cam that HotVW's used in their 1745cc mileage motor and they were surprised at how well it performed on the dyno and in real world driving. If you look at the cam specs you'll see there is only a small difference in duration, 222 vs. 214 degrees, and this conservative increase is what allows the cam to work well with stock or near stock motors. The cheater cam gives you almost 0.100" more lift at the valve. The increase in valve lift allows better breathing (within the conservative parameters of the motor) and more torque production.
The CB lightweight racing lifters are quality pieces and have been used and recommended by many people on here. Since you are going with other stock components then your stock pushrods should be OK. What I would do, since I like to source as many parts from one place as possible, is contact CB, tell them your plans for the motor and that you want to try the cheater cam, and ask for their recommendation on valve springs, keepers and retainers. I would go with at least new stock springs, they may recommend HD springs. Tell them you intend to keep the stock intake and exhaust and how you plan to drive it, low grade gasoline, high altitude, etc. See what they say and follow their advice.
I think if you went with the Web 86 or Engle 100 you would lose some low end torque and you wouldn't be able to take advantage of either cams better breathing in the mid to upper RPM range because of the limitations of the stock intake, heads and exhaust. Now if you went with small dual carbs, a good 3 angle valve job, possible mild porting and a header, then I'd say go for the 100 or 86 cam as that would be a better combo. You wouldn't "trash" your stock motor with either of these cams but you would not get the improvement that you want. With stock components the cheater cam, with it's conservative increase in duration and lift, is a better match with the stock combo you want to run. Remember, it is very easy to over-cam a VW motor. |
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doncoque Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Quito, Ecuador
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Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Darth for you detailed explanation. It cleared up some of my doubts.
Taking into account your recommendation, I checked again the web cam site since i noticed the offered a stock cam. (http://www.webcamshafts.com/pages/automobile/volkswagen/install_data/tc_000670_001611.html). It is around $100 just the cam w/o shipping. And I see that the CB Cheater cam is also "Cheaper". What would you recommend. Should I go stock with the web stock, or try the Cheater? What would I gain and loose if I choose the cheater?
Other thing, I guess I must change the lifters no matter what choice I make, but do I need to change the push rods, springs, keepers and retainers too? What kind should I use? Could I get a "completer kit" from CIP1 with single springs? http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5260-S And new stock push rods?
What would you think it would happen if I put the web 86 or the W100? Would I trash my engine and not get any improvement? Or I'll be just wasting my time and money?
Thanks! |
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