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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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 Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
Yes, that wiring diagram they gave is wrong.
I noticed that too. |
Actually it really doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things, in life it will work either way.... Its simply a SPST switch (30 & 87)....
This site (link) states Terminal #30 is direct to battery (+12 volts)
http://www.e38.org/understanding%20euro%20wiring%20diagrams.pdf
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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turboghia
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2004
Posts: 210
Location: Long Beach, Ca.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:34 am Post subject: |
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So the wiring diagram on this thread is correct, Right?
Steve |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| turboghia wrote: |
I saw this on another Samba thread on how to wire this relay but it does not make sense. What you guys have stated above makes more sense:
31 ground to body
15 + to + side of coil
87 + to + terminal on battery
31b - to - side of coil
30 + to + wire of fuel pump
If you look at the schematic on the relay #87 is a switched terminal, shouldn't terminal #30 be connected to the battery and #87 be connected to the fuel pump? Just bought one of these relays from Russ and wanted to make sure before I wire this up.
Steve |
As 30 and 87 are just a set of switch contacts, it makes no difference which one is battery pos and which is fuel pump feed. They are isolated from the rest of the relay circuit.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone
Last edited by dan macmillan on Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I understand that, but being an industrial electrical designer, it just bugs me.
If that was a double throw switch, (30, 87, 87a) it does make a big difference.
I prefer to teach people to do it right, the first time.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| turboghia wrote: |
I saw this on another Samba thread on how to wire this relay but it does not make sense. What you guys have stated above makes more sense:
31 ground to body
15 + to + side of coil
87 + to + terminal on battery
31b - to - side of coil
30 + to + wire of fuel pump
If you look at the schematic on the relay #87 is a switched terminal, shouldn't terminal #30 be connected to the battery and #87 be connected to the fuel pump? Just bought one of these relays from Russ and wanted to make sure before I wire this up.
Steve |
This is what we are talking about. #30 is always the battery in a VW. #31 is always ground.
Yes, this will work the way it is shown, but it is not proper by DIN wiring codes.
_________________
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
Yes, I understand that, but being an industrial electrical designer, it just bugs me.
If that was a double throw switch, (30, 87, 87a) it does make a big difference.
I prefer to teach people to do it right, the first time. |
That would depend on just what and how you wanted to control with a double throw relay.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:46 am Post subject: |
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I see. I look at the component and how it functions. I do not rely on proper labeling when reading circuits.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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turboghia
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2004
Posts: 210
Location: Long Beach, Ca.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: |
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So 30 is 12 volt from the battery and 87 is to the + side of the fuel pump?
Steve |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| dan macmillan wrote: |
| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
Yes, I understand that, but being an industrial electrical designer, it just bugs me.
If that was a double throw switch, (30, 87, 87a) it does make a big difference.
I prefer to teach people to do it right, the first time. |
That would depend on just what and how you wanted to control with a double throw relay. |
That is standard by DIN standards. You do not go the other way.
If you build an industrial machine and you want it to pass safety standards, you half to wire it right.
_________________
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
Yes, I understand that, but being an industrial electrical designer, it just bugs me.
If that was a double throw switch, (30, 87, 87a) it does make a big difference.
I prefer to teach people to do it right, the first time. |
But it has noting to do with the mechanical aspect of relay construction, its the functionality of the contact arrangement that is what is important. Typically on a SPST or SPDT relay (Bosch-Hella automotive style) 30 is the movable contact and 87 or 87a (b,c,d,x,y,z) are fixed contacts.....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...
Last edited by Dale M. on Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| turboghia wrote: |
So 30 is 12 volt from the battery and 87 is to the + side of the fuel pump?
Steve |
Yes! ...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| dan macmillan wrote: |
| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
Yes, I understand that, but being an industrial electrical designer, it just bugs me.
If that was a double throw switch, (30, 87, 87a) it does make a big difference.
I prefer to teach people to do it right, the first time. |
That would depend on just what and how you wanted to control with a double throw relay. |
Yes.......
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Then there is where I worked in telecommunications for years.....
All our contacts were "make", "fixed", "break"... An then there was "early break before make" and "make before break" contacts..
All relays in these 2 picture are "make" contact relays.... Each square block under plastic cover is "fixed" contact, each pair of small "fingers" are the "make" contacts... And there were thousands of them in a system and have to function flawlessly for years....Upper picture each relay has 12 "sets" of contacts, lower picture each relay has 24 "sets" of contacts...
http://xy3.com/phone/vintage/xbr%20relays.shtml
This was my world for so many years till it was all replaced by transistors (all microprocessor or microprocessor control) ......
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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turboghia
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2004
Posts: 210
Location: Long Beach, Ca.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Installed my relay yesterday, wired it up as per the instructions in the beginning of this thread. Everything works as expected. Works a lot better than the Holley oil pressure switch, much more reliable.
Steve |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| turboghia wrote: |
Installed my relay yesterday, wired it up as per the instructions in the beginning of this thread. Everything works as expected. Works a lot better than the Holley oil pressure switch, much more reliable.
Steve |
In ways this is much better, just remember that if the car sits for a long time and the fuel evaporates from the carb bowl, it will take extended cranking {just like the oil press method} before it will fire.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| dan macmillan wrote: |
In ways this is much better, just remember that if the car sits for a long time and the fuel evaporates from the carb bowl, it will take extended cranking {just like the oil press method} before it will fire. |
No different than a mechanical pump. At least with the electric pump, you can turn the key off and on a few times, and the pump will run for about 2 seconds each time with the FI relay.
_________________
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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jeckess
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2005
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject: Any later models have this relay |
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Do any later models have this, or a similar relay?
My local yard hasn't seen a dasher or a rabbitt in years. |
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tinnocker
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 439
Location: Jasper Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Go back to the first page and you will see that Russ Wolfe has used ones and new ones for sale. |
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jeckess
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2005
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, NSS. I already PMed Russ for prices.
I'm already going to the boneyard tomorrow and was looking for a lead. |
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Bub
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Central Washington
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Dale M."]
| FreightShaker wrote: |
quote]
This concept was discussed in another thread and or another forum, and with the tendency for VW motor to drop out oil pressure at idle this means you have to sit at stop light with engine revved or you will be restarting engine every time you "pause" at traffic signal.....
NO.... The relay or control module controlled by ignition pulse is far superior control to a hash up to oil pressure sending switch.....
Dale |
Just an opinion -- but if your oil pressure is so low at Idle that it triggers the *idiot light* or cuts your fuel supply then you probably should look into it.
Beyond that I see no problem with the fuel pump triggered by oil pressure. As a matter of fact on some more expensive engines I've built I run the ign circuit through the pressure circuit with an oil pressure switch from www.pegasusracing.com
That way I don't even have spark without oil pressure, and the fuel pump off the coil means no pump w/o spark, w/o pressure..
Lastly- if the engine is carbureted then the float bowl should have PLENTY of fuel to keep the engine running at idle for several minutes even if you have erratic low oil pressure. It's not like the engine would stop running instantly.
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| hitest wrote: |
| Had a girlfriend once who shall we say, nearly arrived at the mere sight of a semaphore in action- easy to please she was... |
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