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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Sir Sam wrote: |
That would be fine with me, just give me a LSD rear and a selectable locking front - thats my ideal combo anyways.
The real problem for a syncro now is that you would need matching front ring and pinion, 3.90 gears sound perfect for a diesel, SVX etc, but for us syncro owners we would need a solution for the front diff.
At this point, I wonder if we might be able to switch out the front diff for something else with matched gears - would probably loose the front locker, but make a much more drivable vehicle overall. |
Yeah, the idea of using the Subaru tranny for a Syncro is an interesting idea. And you're right about the mismatch of final drive ratios between the VW front differential and the Subaru trans is the biggest hurdle. It would be possible to use the rear differential from the Subaru mounted upside down on the front Syncro subframe. Todd Triebler, the vendor of the reversed ring and pinion set, is doing this for his AWD Manx buggy. A lot of Subarus come equipped with limited slip rear differentials, so if you did a limited slip in the tranny also, you could have a limited slip differential on both axles and a 50/50 torque split at the center differential. Even though the center differential is a standard spider gear differential, it does also incorporate a small viscous coupling within it that acts as a differential lock. With 4.44:1 gearing that might be a good setup.
For a full locking front, and limited slip rear, Todd would have to offer the Subaru reversed gears in the stock 4.86:1 Syncro ratio. Then the front Syncro differential could be maintained at the front, although it would also have to be flipped. Just going from memory, it may be possible to flip the differential within the front housing on a Syncro. I remember the case being completely symmetrical - I may be wrong on that though. This would be an ideal setup, I think. 4.86:1 is pretty short, but the Subaru transmission has taller 1st-5th ratios, so it would still create an rpm reduction for larger engines.
The clearance issue I mentioned last night has to do with the driveshaft. Subaru mounted their driveshaft output shaft above the mainshaft rather than below it as on the Syncro, so the driveshaft interferes with the transverse crossmember in front of the trans. That could be modified and made to work, but I know some folks are loath to do anything that modifies that actual body of the vehicle.
David |
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thummmper Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 2015 Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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in 1986, I installed a corvair 140 hp, 2.7L in my 64 baja. with a super diff, side covers and welded 3rd and 4th gears, I kept frying the thrust bearings. the corvair and honda are the only engines in the current automotive world that turn opposite to all others. so, GM and vw and ford and volvo all rotate the same direction.
I got the otto parts reverse rotation cam/kit for the 'vair and never had another problem.
there are possible problems with "flipping the ring gear". all the thrust loads are reversed within. maybe the ty is a better design here than the beetle trans is.
I hope this isnt a longevity issue. I am the biggest fan of factory-matched powertrains!!
todd wieland |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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D Clymer wrote: |
Yeah, the idea of using the Subaru tranny for a Syncro is an interesting idea. And you're right about the mismatch of final drive ratios between the VW front differential and the Subaru trans is the biggest hurdle. It would be possible to use the rear differential from the Subaru mounted upside down on the front Syncro subframe. Todd Triebler, the vendor of the reversed ring and pinion set, is doing this for his AWD Manx buggy. A lot of Subarus come equipped with limited slip rear differentials, so if you did a limited slip in the tranny also, you could have a limited slip differential on both axles and a 50/50 torque split at the center differential. Even though the center differential is a standard spider gear differential, it does also incorporate a small viscous coupling within it that acts as a differential lock. With 4.44:1 gearing that might be a good setup.
For a full locking front, and limited slip rear, Todd would have to offer the Subaru reversed gears in the stock 4.86:1 Syncro ratio. Then the front Syncro differential could be maintained at the front, although it would also have to be flipped. Just going from memory, it may be possible to flip the differential within the front housing on a Syncro. I remember the case being completely symmetrical - I may be wrong on that though. This would be an ideal setup, I think. 4.86:1 is pretty short, but the Subaru transmission has taller 1st-5th ratios, so it would still create an rpm reduction for larger engines.
The clearance issue I mentioned last night has to do with the driveshaft. Subaru mounted their driveshaft output shaft above the mainshaft rather than below it as on the Syncro, so the driveshaft interferes with the transverse crossmember in front of the trans. That could be modified and made to work, but I know some folks are loath to do anything that modifies that actual body of the vehicle.
David |
Well, hold up for a second. Maybe I just dont know enough about the internal construction of the suby trans, but it seems to me swapping the ring and pinion will only change the direction of the output of the rear wheels, the front DS output will still turn the same direction as the engine.
Does the stock syncro front output turn opposite to the engine rotation?
Does the stock subaru rear output turn opposite to the engine rotation?
Seems to me that the subaru front output will turn the same direction as the syncro, meaning we only need to get matched gears up front.
Flipping the diff over presents other problems(that is, the whole housing not just the internals), mainly oiling.
Definately something worth exploring, I would rather have all subaru components for the drivetrain than VW. I placed very little faith in all those VW parts.
I suspected the syncro issue had to do with the hieght of the output, personally I am willing to make modifcations to the body if it means that for $100 and my saturday I can go out and get a replacement trans at the junkyard and put it in. Around here subaru's are common, and parts are cheap at junkyards. I cannot say the same for good syncro trannies. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Another question, how do the VW CV shafts attach to the Subaru flange? _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Sir Sam wrote: |
Another question, how do the VW CV shafts attach to the Subaru flange? |
Subarus use an unusual inner CV joint that attaches directly to the output shaft. A roll pin type fastener keeps it in place. Todd is in the prototype stage right now with a product he calls Subaflanges. These VW style flanges will attach to the Subaru output shafts in the same manner as the Subaru inner joint and are compatible with the VW inner joints.
I'll get back to you on your earlier post when I have a chance. I am currently trying to prepare and post the next installment of this thread.
David |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Part I: Physical Installation of the Subaru Transmission.
Entry #1: Shortening the End Housing:
As I mentioned yesterday, Todd’s reverse cut ring and pinion sets are designed to work with the all wheel drive version of the Subaru TY gearbox. This gearbox is designed like an Audi Quattro tranny, in that it has a hollow driven shaft that turns the center differential. The center differential then turns a smaller pinion shaft that runs right through the hollow driven shaft to the front differential. To convert this transmission to 2wd, you remove the center differential and bolt a custom made locking sleeve in place of the diff. This sleeve joins the driven and pinion shafts together and makes them work in the manner of a Subaru 2wd tranny. With the center differential removed, the end housing ends up being pretty much empty, and can be cut down by up to 10cm.
While still in the planning stages, I had measured the distance between the half-shafts and the transverse front beam that the transmission bolts to. I found that I had 46.9cm to work with. From a diagram that Todd had given me, I knew that the Subaru transmission measured 28.5cm from the half-shaft centerline to the end of the main case (with the end housing removed.) Even with the center differential removed, the end housing still houses one gear set and contains the shift selector shaft, so it was essential to keep it partly intact. I considered three different lengths for the end housing before finally deciding to cut it down to 13.5cm. According to my calculations, this would leave me with just under 5cm clearance between the front of the transmission and the transverse beam. This compared decently with the 6.2cm clearance of the stock VW setup.
With that settled, I set to work modifying the end housing. Measuring 7cm in from the end of the housing for the cutoff line on the irregular casting turned out to be a tough process.
After I had marked out the basic cutoff line, I had to figure out how to cut it. With no way to really hold the end housing square I elected to hand feed it through a band saw, keep the length of the housing slightly long, and do a finish cut later on.
One of the benefits of cutting the housing at 13.5cm is that the freeze plug style steel access plate on the side of the housing isn’t compromised. Also, two of the four gusseted mounting bosses for the Subaru tranny mount were completely retained. This left me with some good attachment points for the front tranny mount. The biggest concern with cutting the housing down, involved the tunnel for the shift selector shaft. By cutting it down, I had removed the portion with the oil seal and the neutral position switch. Of course, I also had concerns about the durability of the shortened aluminum bore also. More on these details later.
With the housing rough cut, I then clamped the end housing to a milling machine and used an end mill to accurately machine the shortened end.
I left the shift tunnel at the rough cut length for the time being since it sits at an angle compared to the rest of the end cut on the housing. I knew I would have to come back to that later and spot face it and machine it to accept an oil seal.
With the dimensions of the housing and also the length of the transmission set in stone, I next set to work orienting the transmission correctly in the Vanagon body.
To be continued... |
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brad131a4 Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2010 Posts: 46 Location: Sammamish
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Oiling on the front or flipped subby diff won't be a problem as the gears sit in the oil and they carry the oil with them. It's not pressurized like motors are. The drain and fill plugs will have to be moved on the flipped diff as well as the vent but those are minor fab up. Plus Dave Cara wants to know how come your posting and not over here sanding on the rabbit |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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brad131a4 wrote: |
Oiling on the front or flipped subby diff won't be a problem as the gears sit in the oil and they carry the oil with them. It's not pressurized like motors are. The drain and fill plugs will have to be moved on the flipped diff as well as the vent but those are minor fab up. Plus Dave Cara wants to know how come your posting and not over here sanding on the rabbit |
Flipping the diff internally, yes, but flipping the housing can lead to oil not pooling in the correct ways to lubricate the diff. Lots of people have tried to do this with Dana 60 rears to make front, and vise versa, the results were less than spectacular. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Sir Sam wrote: |
Well, hold up for a second. Maybe I just dont know enough about the internal construction of the suby trans, but it seems to me swapping the ring and pinion will only change the direction of the output of the rear wheels, the front DS output will still turn the same direction as the engine.
Does the stock syncro front output turn opposite to the engine rotation?
Does the stock subaru rear output turn opposite to the engine rotation?
Seems to me that the subaru front output will turn the same direction as the syncro, meaning we only need to get matched gears up front.
Flipping the diff over presents other problems(that is, the whole housing not just the internals), mainly oiling.
Definately something worth exploring, I would rather have all subaru components for the drivetrain than VW. I placed very little faith in all those VW parts.
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The Syncro transmission drives the front output shaft from the pinion shaft. The engine turns the input shaft clockwise. This in turn drives the pinion shaft counterclockwise, so the front output shaft turns counterclockwise.
The Subaru transmission has its input shaft turned clockwise. This drives the main shaft and center differential counterclockwise. The front input shaft is geared from one side of the center differential, and it is turned clockwise.
In regard to flipping over the whole Subaru rear differential, the inside of the housing is identical above the differential and below it, and there are no irregular areas for oil distribution problems. On Todd's project he flipped the entire unit and then removed the front access plate and re-mounted it right side up so that the oil fill hole and vent holes are in the correct locations.
I'm with you on the idea of using the whole Subaru system. The parts are plentiful and durable, and with the possibility of limited slip differentials in all three locations, the traction should be excellent.
David |
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a914622 Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2004 Posts: 837 Location: Westend of HWY2 , Wash
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thats SWEET!!
So is the tranny going to be a Tail shifter?? or like the 6 speeds , A side shifter? Does the ring and pinion fit the 6 speeds?? That would be super cool.
jeff l _________________ 87 gl powerd buy 2.5subaru
75 914 getting 2.2t subaru scratch that SVX subaru |
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onwardtothestars Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2007 Posts: 225 Location: Hazenville Pass Wyoming
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm all for innovation but is the subaru transaxle really known to be that tough ?
I've know several people with WRX's that have multiple transaxle replacements. There's a lot of websites about weak first gears, bad first gear syncros, howl and whine during deceleration etc.
I've heard it's not the case with the 6 speed STI unit though. _________________ lots of VW's |
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jackbombay Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007 Posts: 2723 Location: Eastern Idaho
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Off topic.
tclark wrote: |
OK can some do the math for me & tell me the rpm that a 1.9 TDI gonna run at with 15" inch wheel at 65-70mph ??
I guess we want around 2K maybe a bit less ? |
At 65 MPH you want a good bit more than 2k, mine spins 2750 at 67 MPH and I think its pretty close to ideal.
/off topic
This is an awesome project!
I didn't read the whole thread all that close, so I'm not sure what your plans are for a shifter set-up, but I do have a cable shifter set-up from a MK3 Jetta that I don't need and would sell quite cheap, PM me if you're interested. _________________
Gas struts to pop your top easily!
Pop Top strut kits now available for late Bay window Westies
Samba ad here.
DIY artificial rain gutters (ARGs) |
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a914622 Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2004 Posts: 837 Location: Westend of HWY2 , Wash
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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onwardtothestars wrote: |
I'm all for innovation but is the subaru transaxle really known to be that tough ?
I've know several people with WRX's that have multiple transaxle replacements. There's a lot of websites about weak first gears, bad first gear syncros, howl and whine during deceleration etc.
I've heard it's not the case with the 6 speed STI unit though. |
Iv heard the same thing BUT is its some one trying to drive like KEN BLOCK. (google his video) If the shaft fits the 6speed that would be sweet. But with the know problems of the wrx tranny there are also many fixes! It shouldnt be tough to upgrade the gears with the tranny apart.
jeff l _________________ 87 gl powerd buy 2.5subaru
75 914 getting 2.2t subaru scratch that SVX subaru |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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you could go to the pages linked to the various sites that talk about the project ( the differential mod) and the subaru trans. and what various engines it is designed to work with stock from the factory, like the STIs and the new Subie diesel. _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
I can see that. I bet using the Vanagon shifter (5 speed I assume) would involve a hybrid between the Suby and Vanagon bits. Does the stock Suby use cables? If so, would you incorporate those into the Vanagon somehow?
Neil.
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Hey Neil,
The Subaru 5 speed is a tail shifter with a selector shaft - very much like a VW bug except the Subaru shaft is angled upward (unfortunetely). The new 6 speed version of this trans that comes in the 2010 Legacys has a cable shifter. One advantage to designing a cable shifter that will work in the Vanagon is that it would be compatible with the 6 speed tranny down the road when they become available used. If I stay with the rod setup, the actual linkage would be straightforward. Much of the standard Vanagon setup could be used. The rod closest to the tranny would have to be replaced/modified to interface with the Subaru selector rod. As far as the shifter itself goes, it doesn't really matter which box is used - 5speed 094 or 4 speed 091. They both would have to have the gates modified to work with the Subaru pattern.
a914622 wrote: |
Thats SWEET!!
So is the tranny going to be a Tail shifter?? or like the 6 speeds , A side shifter? Does the ring and pinion fit the 6 speeds?? That would be super cool.
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Hi Jeff,
The 5 speeds are all tail shifters. This new TY type 6 speed seen for the first time in the 2010 Legacy is not the same as the 6 speed used in the STIs. It does however have the same cable shifter arrangement. Todd's ring and pinion set does not yet work for this new 6 speed, and since there are none available used yet he hasn't opened one up to study it. I don't want to speculate too much on what he might offer for future products, but I have a feeling he will be interested in doing a ring and pinion set for the 6 speed sometime down the road.
onwardtothestars wrote: |
I've know several people with WRX's that have multiple transaxle replacements. There's a lot of websites about weak first gears, bad first gear syncros, howl and whine during deceleration etc.
I've heard it's not the case with the 6 speed STI unit though.
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Yeah, I have friends with WRXs and I've heard about tranny failures with modified WRXs. However, I also know how those friends drive High rpm drop clutch starts with all wheel drive tend to ruin gears and bearings rather quickly. If drop clutch starts in a modified Vanagon are on the agenda, at least in this application the tranny will only be driving the rear wheels. With wheelspin there would be much less strain.
The main thing is, this trans has a much higher torque rating than the Vanagon 091 tranny, and that's what really counts. As was mentioned below by Jeff, there are also a lot of choices for upgraded gears available.
I'm perplexed by, and don't really believe the claims seen on the WRX websites that the Subaru tranny howls and whines during acceleration and deceleration. I'm a VW/Audi guy so I don't have a huge Subaru background, but I've driven them and I don't remember the trannies being anything other than smooth shifting and quiet. Also, Subaru makes cars that regularly score highly in comparison tests in the auto magazines. I don't think they'd be getting good reviews if the tranny was unrefined.
I'm certainly not expecting any durability problems from the power generated by the average normally aspirated Subaru or VW motor.
David |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Entry #2: Baseline Measurements and Trial Fitting the Subaru Tranny
Todd’s research showed the distance between the transmission output shafts and the end of the bellhousing to be 172mm on the VW 091 transmission and the same distance to be 7mm shorter, at 165mm, on the Subaru transmission. I measured the adaptor plate thickness at 13mm. This meant that by mounting the Subaru transmission with the axle shafts perfectly perpendicular to the transmission centerline, the slightly shorter Subaru bellhousing and the elimination of the adaptor plate would move the Subaru engine 20mm forward of where it bolts up when mated to the VW transmission. The clearance is already tight on a Subaru conversion between the throttle body and the sheetmetal at the front of the engine bay, so reducing this distance is never desirable, but I wanted the transmission to mount with the axles perpendicular to the tranny centerline just as it was with the VW tranny fitted.
With that settled I put together a mock-up drivetrain consisting of a Subaru EJ22 engine, a VW 091/1 transmission, an Outfront Motorsports adaptor plate and a Smallcar rear engine mount. I then bolted this whole drivetrain up under the Vanagon.
With the drivetrain installed, I took some measurements. I found that the rear engine crossmember bolts to the Vanagon frame 55mm further back than it does when bolted to a Wasserboxer. I also extended a construction level across the load floor of the van and measured 19.8cm from the engine case to the bottom of the construction level.
With these critical dimensions recorded I pulled the drivetrain again and got ready to switch transmissions.
That’s when I found my first surprise. I was at a stopping point for the evening, and so I lined up both transmissions on the garage floor. I set the bellhousing ends equal and noticed that the output shafts were a lot further apart than the expected 7mm.
Note: This is the only comparison photo I had from that night. I will replace it with a better one when I pull the Subaru tranny out of the van this week.
I studied both trannies for a minute to be sure, and then I took measurements of both bellhousings (output shaft to end of housing) and came up with the expected 165mm for the Subaru transmission. To my surprise, however, the Wasserboxer 091/1 transmission measured a full 205mm – and not the 172mm I had been expecting. I suddenly realized that Todd’s diagram had shown the measurements for an 091 air cooled bus transmission with obviously a much shorter bellhousing. I had just assumed it would be the same.
This development created the need for a compromise. Putting the Subaru tranny in the position I had originally planned, with the axles set perpendicular to the centerline, would end up moving the Subaru engine a full 53mm forward. This would definitely have created clearance problems with trying to connect an intake pipe to the throttle body.
I instead decided to move the transmission back 27mm. This location would move the Subaru engine forward 26mm. This was close to the 20mm I had originally planned to move it forward. The main reason I chose specifically 27mm is because I plan to mount a Wasserboxer to the Subaru transmission at some point, and this will allow the Wasserboxer with a 13mm adaptor plate to stay in its original position.
I wasn’t thrilled at angling the half shafts by 1”, but I was also dropping the differential by 2” and decreasing the vertical angle of the shafts by that much. Also, the air-cooled Vanagons had the half shafts angled forward by a little over an inch. I didn’t have any concerns about spoiling the weight distribution since the Subaru engine was actually being moved forward.
With that decided, I rolled the Subaru engine/transmission combination back under the van and lifted it into place.
I had made reference marks on both ends of the engine cradle and both frame rails on the van. After getting the drivetrain back into position I measured 26mm forward of the previous marks and moved everything forward.
I was pretty happy with the installed layout and was actually very glad to have an inch more clearance between the front of the tranny and the transverse member under the van. With the rear engine crossmember bolted in position, and the tranny held up by a floor jack, it seemed like I was all through with surprises – until I went to center up the transmission and connect the half-shafts with the transmission output shafts.
To be continued…
[/b] |
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jizae Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2005 Posts: 52 Location: L.A., California
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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D clymer, you are a LEGEND for that! That is AMAZING how you were able to create and design all those modifications like that! I'm telling you, I really think that if enough of us Vanagon and bus lovers combined all of our mental, mechanical, & creative talents and if we had some type of resources, after this corporate VW finally goes under and everything has to start over again, we can do damn near ANYTHING! Awesome pictures of your work.. I am totally speechless. Two thumbs up! |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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jizae wrote: |
D clymer, you are a LEGEND for that! That is AMAZING how you were able to create and design all those modifications like that! I'm telling you, I really think that if enough of us Vanagon and bus lovers combined all of our mental, mechanical, & creative talents and if we had some type of resources, after this corporate VW finally goes under and everything has to start over again, we can do damn near ANYTHING! Awesome pictures of your work.. I am totally speechless. Two thumbs up! |
Thanks, Man! I really appreciate the compliment and positive feedback on the project. With long projects like this, you come to rely on the encouragement of fellow enthusiasts to keep you going.
Take care,
David |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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epic!
and masterful writing! _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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klucz Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2006 Posts: 1062 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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AWESOME!!! _________________ 84 Westy 4spd sold |
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