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wbx Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2005 Posts: 1254 Location: Monterey, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Truly impressive write-up. While I'm sure it wasn't such a clean thought process as you've written down, it is great see how you figured stuff out. I like the simplicity and clarity of your approach. You've got some serious van mod cajones, btw! _________________ '84 Westy (first owner).......but my daily driver has pedals
My "perspective" mantra:
A Volkswagen Vanagon is just a material thing,
As such, it is of the earth,
And if i need to, I can let my Van go. |
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Alaric.H Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2009 Posts: 2529 Location: Sandy Springs GA
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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What size tires are you going to run? |
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jeremysmithatshawdotca Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2002 Posts: 2530 Location: Edmonton, AB
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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thummmper wrote: |
the corvair and honda are the only engines in the current automotive world that turn opposite to all others. so, GM and vw and ford and volvo all rotate the same direction. |
Then if you mated a Honda engine to a Subaru awd system you'd have the basis for a syncro conversion? Wouldn't it be fun to cobble together the front suspension for that? |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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so what Subaru models/years do these transmissions come in? _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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Tristar Eric Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2004 Posts: 1242 Location: Portland, Or
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Brilliant! David, you are a pioneer. |
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jeremysmithatshawdotca Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2002 Posts: 2530 Location: Edmonton, AB
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Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:56 am Post subject: |
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240Gordy wrote: |
so what Subaru models/years do these transmissions come in? |
From his first post in the thread:
D Clymer wrote: |
The Subaru 5 speed used in all manual transmission Legacys, Imprezas, and Foresters wears a type code of TY, and was first used in the 1990 Legacy. Subaru obviously got it right with this transmission because they have continued to develop it over the last two decades and as recently as 2008 they developed a 6 speed version of it that was first used in the Subaru turbodiesel. That transmission is now the standard transmission for the 2010 Legacys and Outbacks |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:46 am Post subject: |
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jeremysmithatshawdotca wrote: |
240Gordy wrote: |
so what Subaru models/years do these transmissions come in? |
From his first post in the thread:
D Clymer wrote: |
The Subaru 5 speed used in all manual transmission Legacys, Imprezas, and Foresters wears a type code of TY, and was first used in the 1990 Legacy. Subaru obviously got it right with this transmission because they have continued to develop it over the last two decades and as recently as 2008 they developed a 6 speed version of it that was first used in the Subaru turbodiesel. That transmission is now the standard transmission for the 2010 Legacys and Outbacks |
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thanks, I was a little stunned, shocked and awed after reading the subsequent posts. _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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EvanDJ Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2009 Posts: 49 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Very informative. Thanks for sharing your adventure with the rest of us. |
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mathieux46 Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2006 Posts: 259
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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My favorite thread since a long time... Just awesone...
Just a question like that, would it be possible or simpler to use a automatic subaru transmission to start with? I could have been easier for linkeage maybe?
Can't wait to see the final results!!!!
Mat |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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the aussie guy that makes the subagears originally started out with a couple of automatics, but they were too long for what he wanted to do, which was put them in a Type 1 chassis, (Beetle)
look on e the subagears website, he lista what transmissions you can use these mods on. _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Just FYI, if you're stuck moving the motor forward, the Subaru intake manifold is reversable, so you can run it with the throttle body pointing aft. _________________ '86 Syncro CHC Top AAZ Turbodiesel
'04 Passat Variant 4Mo 5MT
Vanagon Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466866&highlight= |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:01 am Post subject: |
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mccavittj wrote: |
Just FYI, if you're stuck moving the motor forward, the Subaru intake manifold is reversable, so you can run it with the throttle body pointing aft. |
Thanks for the tip. Yes, I knew the manifold was reversible, but I elected not go that route because the alternator needs to be relocated and it would end up where the A/C compressor sits. Good option for someone running a basic van with no other engine accessories, though.
David |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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240Gordy wrote: |
so what Subaru models/years do these transmissions come in? |
The basic transmission design goes back to 1990 with the introduction of the first Subaru Legacy. They improved the tranny in 2000 with the introduction of the third generation Legacy. At that point it got an 8 bolt bellhousing. The close ratio transmission for the normally aspirated cars seems to start in 1998 with the Impreza 2.5 RS and Legacy GT. I don't know all of the improvements and upgrades made along the way. Subarus are a new subject of study for me.
Tristar Eric wrote: |
Brilliant! David, you are a pioneer. |
Thanks, Eric! And thanks for all the great projects you've done that have inspired me.
Alaric.H wrote: |
What size tires are you going to run? |
On this van, 215/55/16 on the front and 225/55/16 on the rear on 7" and 8" wide staggered fitment wheels.
mathieux46 wrote: |
Just a question like that, would it be possible or simpler to use a automatic subaru transmission to start with? I could have been easier for linkeage maybe? |
Todd's reverse cut ring and pinion set won't work in the automatics, and I'm also a manual shift die-hard. Todd actually will be producing components to reverse the Subaru automatics in the future. This reversal will involve removing one sprocket from the Morse drive chain that Subaru uses to turn the driveshaft that goes from the end of the trans back to the differential.
Thanks everyone for the comments, encouragement and compliments. I'm trying to post an update every Monday. At the moment I still have some lead time between these posts and where I currently am.
David |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Entry #3: Centering Up the Engine and Building the Front Trans Mount
With the engine cradle bolted to the frame and the transmission held into position by a jack, I was anxious to put the drive axles into position so I could check them for length and appearance. The first step was to center up the nose of the transmission between the rear trailing arm pick-up points.
This ended up being a difficult task, and it was one of those where your eyes told you the center was in a different place from what the actual measurements showed. After quite a bit of fiddling around I got the transmission centered. I had removed the inner CV joints from the drive axles because I was planning to attach the drive axles to the output shafts with pieces of heater hose since I had no flanges. When I went to attach the passenger side shaft, I found that it actually touched the output shaft on the Subaru transmission. That got me thinking that the shafts were simply too long, until I tried the driver side and found that it cleared with room to spare. After studying things and making a few measurements on that van and my own Wasserboxer van, I suddenly realized the engine sits 10mm to the right of the Vanagon body centerline. As soon as I looked at the original 091/1 transmission I figured out why.
The input shaft actually sits to the right of the transmission case centerline. The photo above shows how far the input shaft sits from the centerline of the tranny case and differential. Naturally, Subaru conversions also need to sit offset to the right because they are usually mated to the VW transmission. I next looked at the Subaru transmission and noted that the input shaft on that trans is perfectly centered with the parting line of that case. With that discovery, it became clear that I needed to move the Subaru engine to the center of the van in order to center up the transmission.
I was using a three piece Smallcar rear mount. The rear portion of the mount approximates the design of the Wasserboxer rear mount bracket. Luckily for me, Smallcar designed their mount with elongated holes to allow the rear portion of the mount to accommodate production tolerances. I loosened the bolts and scooted the engine as far to the left as I could. I was actually able to get a surprising amount of movement. However, the engine was still not quite centered. I ended up removing the Smallcar mount and extending the length of the elongated holes by 1/8”. This gave me the extra adjustment room I needed, and I was able to get the engine centered up.
In the photo you can see that the space between the left engine mount stud and the crank pulley is significantly less than the same dimension on the right. That illustrates how far I had to move the engine over to center it up.
With the engine and transmission now perfectly in the center of the van, the next step was to design and fabricate a front transmission mount. I had planned from the beginning to model the front mount after the standard VW mount and to bolt it to the stock mounting holes in the transverse cross member. With this in mind, it worked out well that the cut down end housing was able to retain two of the Subaru mounting bosses.
The stock VW mount basically consists of a mounting plate, a profiled clevis portion, and then the bolt on mount bushing holder with body mounting plate. I decided to fabricate a mounting plate and attach it to the transmission end housing. It was a no brainer to recycle the profiled clevis portion of the VW mount since it could be cut off cleanly from the VW mount plate. Locating the clevis portion of the mount on the fabricated plate would take place under the van with the clevis and top mount bolted to the body, and the fabricated mounting plate attached to the transmission. The exact positioning of these components is one of those that cannot be completely calculated without an actual physical mount up.
My mounting plate was going to have to be more complex than the simple flat VW unit. I had to pick up two horizontal mounting holes at the Subaru mounting bosses as well as two more vertical ones I had planned to provide in the aluminum block off plate to be welded into the front of the shortened end housing. I decided to pick up the horizontal mounts with 1.5” steel angle stock.
Because of the 20 or so degree angle of the mounting bosses, I decided to drill the angle pieces and mount them to the end housing. With the angle pieces installed, I could then put the end housing back on the mill and accurately mill the ends of the brackets to be perfectly vertical.
I chose to make the mounting plate from 3/16” steel plate. It was only slightly thicker than the VW mounting plate and was readily available. I started with a 6”x8” piece. It was the correct width at the base to perfectly match the location of the angle pieces. I wasn’t sure what I needed for height, so I cut it down a little bit, but left it generously long in case the profiled clevis had to be higher than I had anticipated.
Once I had it cut, I clamped it to the carefully milled angle pieces and brought it to my friend Brad to weld. For the time being we just tack welded it in place since the end housing didn’t allow very good access to the rear of the mount. Before I called it quits for the evening, I cut the profiled clevis from the original VW mounting plate.
While the overall design of the front mount was straightforward, I knew there was one critical dimension that had to work out – and that was the location of the shift selector rod in relation to the edge of the profiled clevis. With this on my mind, I turned out the shop lights for the night.
To be continued… |
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greggearhead Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2004 Posts: 563 Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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Lakesurfer Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2010 Posts: 33 Location: Toronto, On Canada
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Fantastic exploration, really interesting.
Just bought my first Westy (89 w/J22)) and drove it home 1000 miles @ 4200rpm. It's really unnerving driving a 3 speed auto when your used to 5 speeds. _________________ 1989 J22 Westfalia |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5390 Location: PNW
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Nice job, David! I am enjoying watching the process. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17118 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: |
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This is great documentation of how much custom fabrication is required with these types of modifications. It is one thing to lay in bed dreaming something up. But then not to just implement it, but do so with quality. Nice catch on the centerline of the engine. mark _________________ ☮️ |
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brad131a4 Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2010 Posts: 46 Location: Sammamish
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:51 am Post subject: |
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With as many ideas Dave has for these vanagons . It should keep Dave and me busy probably until we retire. |
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Robw_z Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2007 Posts: 983
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:09 am Post subject: |
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-Rob |
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