TheSamba.com
>Help  >Donate  >Buy Shirts  >Register  >Log in See all Samba banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com
 
Starter motor keeps on going after key has been released
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Simon Guthrie
Samba Member


Joined: September 22, 2006
Posts: 24
Location: UK
Simon Guthrie is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject: Starter motor keeps on going after key has been released Reply with quote

Hi all,

I have an intermittent problem which causes the starter motor to keep cranking the engine after the engine is running and I have let go of the key. I can even switch the ignition off so that the engine stops and remove the key from the ignition switch and the starter motor still continues to crank. Does this sound like its a faulty ignition switch? or could it be a problem with the starter motor?

Thanks for your help

Simon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
pkdmslf
Samba Member


Joined: December 13, 2009
Posts: 111
Location: Mesa, Aridzona
pkdmslf is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like your switch is bad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
runamoc Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 2877
Location: 37.54N 77.18W
runamoc is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The solenoid and linkage on the starter could be so crusty it won't 'release'.
_________________
*DISCLAIMER* What you see might not be what I typed!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DasVolksRodder
Samba Member


Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 44
Location: West Virginia
DasVolksRodder is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its more than likely your starter solenoid/bendix combo. you might be able to take it apart and grease it so it will move and not be sticky. all depends on how its made, my old GMs done that with 6v starters.
_________________
62 Impala 2dr HT build


70 Cabrio build
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
phantomx1
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2006
Posts: 127

phantomx1 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen several times throughout my years that the contact plate inside the starter solenoid will stick. What causes this is that the contact plate becomes pitted from arching on the two contact points. The pits are actually like rough arching spots on the plate and the the two copper points. When those surfaces get like this and you hit the key, the plate hits the two contact points and all the contact area is roughened up. When they contact they arch and it sort of welds the plate to the contacts and it won't let go when you let up off the key. The spring in the solenoid doesn't have enough power to pull the plate back off of the two contacts to break the welded contact condition.

Read this carefully
What you can do to get more life out of this solenoid is to, (1) take the solenoid off the starter. (2) take a socket and break the two main copper contact stud nuts loose. (3) Remove the screws holding the solenoid cap on and carefully pull it slightly back. (Be very carefull pulling the cap back, there are some small wires going to the small stud that energize the solenoid. You don't want to break them. You just want to cock the cap back enough to spin the two big copper contact studs around 180. (4) Loosen the copper contact stud nuts on the outside more, enough to lightly tap or push the contact studs in enough to spin thim 180 degrees. They have to come inward enough to be able to spin them 180. (5) Then tighten every thing up in reverse order.

What this does is give you brand new copper contact surfaces on the copper contact studs. No more sticking/welding of the starter solenoid switch. Or you can purchase a new solenoid. This method works very good for a long time. It's just like a new solenoid. It's a good trick to know.

Not saying this is your problem, but it is what sounds like what is happening to me by the description you gave. Hope this helps you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
pkdmslf
Samba Member


Joined: December 13, 2009
Posts: 111
Location: Mesa, Aridzona
pkdmslf is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would there still be 'juice' to the solenoid/starter after the ignition switch was turned off and the key removed? The OP said even with the key removed the starter is still "cranking".

With no voltage the solenoid should disengage and the starter motor should stop spinning.

Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
phantomx1
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2006
Posts: 127

phantomx1 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The two big wires, one coming directly from the battery, and the other the main big wire going from the solenoid cap down to the brushes inside the starter.

When the plate inside the solenoid weld/sticks to those two contacts, it's just like by-passing the solenoid and hooking the starter motor itself straight up to the battery. Razz

The wire that comes from the key switch only delivers voltage to the solenoid to energize it to tell the plate to kick in to conect the two big main wires. If that plate arch welds itself to theose two big contact posts, letting up off of the key to de-energize the solenoid, the big spring inside the solenoid will not have enough power to pull the plate back away from those two bid copper stud contacts, thus direct battery power continues to spin the starter motor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
phantomx1
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2006
Posts: 127

phantomx1 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When that plate welds itself to the contact studs, it is not a big weld like when you weld with a welding machine, but it will weld minutely enough to cause the plate to stick which keeps her the starter turning over. It is caused by arch pitting and a rough surface where the plate has arched many times over a long period of time. The surfaces become rough and developes minute exploded pits and tits and when the plate hits that roughness areas it can stick and weld and hold the plate in contact.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
pkdmslf
Samba Member


Joined: December 13, 2009
Posts: 111
Location: Mesa, Aridzona
pkdmslf is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, learn something new everyday.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
phantomx1
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2006
Posts: 127

phantomx1 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a pretty good trick to know rotating the studs to get new surfaces. Remember the plate can become arch etched too, but it usually can freely rotate by itself. Usually just flipping the studs to get new surface will cure it for a long time.

Also:
When the starter hangs up like that and you don't know what to do at that precise nerve racking instant,

(1) first try a few quick blip starts with the key hopefully to jar the plate loose from the sticking.

(2) If that ,quickly get to the solenoid and try tapping on the metal part of the barrel of the solenoid hopefully to dislodge the grip of the welded contact condition.

(3) If that fails unhook the battery. or simply do this first.

The first time it hangs up like that you will now know the plate and stud contact surfaces have probably become arch pitted and you either need to flip the studs or buy a new solenoid for the starter. Don't just think that because you disodged that first time it fixed it and it won't happen again when you are in the grocery store parking lot. Flip em or buy a new solenoid. Cheaper to flip em if you can.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Portuguy
Samba Member


Joined: January 02, 2014
Posts: 1

Portuguy is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Starter was overrunning when power on but not now...... Reply with quote

Since i fitted a brand new fully charged battery the problem seems to have stoped . How long that will last i dont know? Previously i was using a rather discharged battery as car was unused for quite some time and the engine turned over several times by itself with just the ignition -on position . Is it possible a low battery could cause this problem?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
drew8372
Samba Member


Joined: January 20, 2012
Posts: 89
Location: Massachusetts
drew8372 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my 72 has done the same problem for 15 years, if the battery gets too low you can crank it over, if it doesn't start the key doesn't do anything you can take it out and it still cranks. i usually just pull a terminal off the battery to stop it. but once the battery is full it is fine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Wasted youth/adulthood
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 1077
Location: California's Hot and Dusty Central Valley
Wasted youth/adulthood is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drew8372 wrote:
my 72 has done the same problem for 15 years, if the battery gets too low you can crank it over, if it doesn't start the key doesn't do anything you can take it out and it still cranks. i usually just pull a terminal off the battery to stop it. but once the battery is full it is fine


Anyone know what phenomena causes this to happen? I seem to be suffering the same problem after installing a newly-rebuilt starter from a trusted shop.
_________________
1973 automatic transmission bus with A/C, 1977 CE-1 2.0 L F/I sliding roof bus, 1968 Double Cab and a 1970 Brilliant Blue deluxe... All four are California imports.

busdaddy wrote:
The diodes are very likely cooked now due to loverboy's misguided jumper attempt.


Red Fau Veh wrote:
Santa Cruz is an awesome place to break down, just stay there. Cool


aeromech wrote:
It's jacked up but just so I can get my fat ass under there and reach the nipples.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 6666
Location: (West) Tokyo, Japan
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two likely reasons for the starter to continue running even after you have turned the ignition key back to the ON or OFF position....

1) You have a bad ignition switch and it continues to send power down the red/black #50 wire. This will keep the solenoid energized and the starter will continue to turn the engine.

2) The contacts inside the solenoid become fused together and the battery cable continues to power the starter motor even though the ignition switch is no longer powering the #50 circuit. Here are some pics to show the HD contacts inside the starter solenoid. You may only need to open the solenoid up and clean the contact points with a file or sandpaper.

This is the contact bar mounted to the end of the solenoid shaft. When the coil in the solenoid is energized by the #50 circuit this flat plate is pushed out (towards the end cap); closing the circuit between the battery cable stud and the other stud that powers the starter motor.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is the inside of the solenoid cap. Each of those square plates is the bottom of the two studs in the end of the solenoid. The flat plate above will short those two together while the solenoid is powered.
Over time, it is possible for the contact points to become burnt/pitted and when the plate closes the circuit the arc formed actually welds the contacts closed and the starter remains powered.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD)
"stock" 1600 w/ 34 PICT-3 carb & S/A tranny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wasted youth/adulthood
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 1077
Location: California's Hot and Dusty Central Valley
Wasted youth/adulthood is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent photo essay! Thanks for the tip, it gives me a nice visual of what is going on... Cool

Any thoughts on the weak battery scenario?
_________________
1973 automatic transmission bus with A/C, 1977 CE-1 2.0 L F/I sliding roof bus, 1968 Double Cab and a 1970 Brilliant Blue deluxe... All four are California imports.

busdaddy wrote:
The diodes are very likely cooked now due to loverboy's misguided jumper attempt.


Red Fau Veh wrote:
Santa Cruz is an awesome place to break down, just stay there. Cool


aeromech wrote:
It's jacked up but just so I can get my fat ass under there and reach the nipples.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wasted youth/adulthood
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 1077
Location: California's Hot and Dusty Central Valley
Wasted youth/adulthood is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a few years ago on the Performance/Engines forum:

Jake Raby wrote:
Sounds like you had the charge wire from the alternator/generator hooked to the actuation spade of the starter...

Been there, done that!



Hmmm....anyone else had this issue?
_________________
1973 automatic transmission bus with A/C, 1977 CE-1 2.0 L F/I sliding roof bus, 1968 Double Cab and a 1970 Brilliant Blue deluxe... All four are California imports.

busdaddy wrote:
The diodes are very likely cooked now due to loverboy's misguided jumper attempt.


Red Fau Veh wrote:
Santa Cruz is an awesome place to break down, just stay there. Cool


aeromech wrote:
It's jacked up but just so I can get my fat ass under there and reach the nipples.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 6666
Location: (West) Tokyo, Japan
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a pic of the installed starter solenoid with loose wiring.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

You can see the two large studs that the internal plate connect. The battery cable is on the outer most one. The cable that powers the starter motor mounted on the inner one. If you accidentally installed the battery cable on the inner stud you would energize the starter motor as soon as the battery terminals were connected. Not too difficult to do when you can't easily see the solenoid lying on your back.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD)
"stock" 1600 w/ 34 PICT-3 carb & S/A tranny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2013, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB