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GI Joe Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2005 Posts: 2012 Location: Athens, TN
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:28 am Post subject: |
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vgajames wrote: |
Captain Spalding wrote: |
vgajames wrote: |
Are those Mann filters HP rated like the K&N HP3001 ? |
I don't know what the burst pressure rating is for the Mann W719/5, but Mann is an OEM supplier of filters for VW and Porsche. Probably more significant is the difference in the bypass pressure. The HP3001 has a bypass pressure rating of 8-11 p.s.i., while the Mann filter has a bypass pressure of 2.5 bar or 36 p.s.i.. |
I was referring the the canister thickness.I have seen oil filters blow up on
full flow VW's.The can swells up and boom. |
Ya'll have me lost here. I've heard nothing of bursting oil filters. My local Speed shop has built most of the engines in this area and probably worked on Every ACVW around here, this is what he uses/recommends.
This isn't a monster engine, just a mild 1915. What am I missing?
Burst pressure, Bypass pressure?? _________________ '74 Thing, "Our Thing"....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=60
'71 Beetle RPU
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8080337#8080337
www.NLEOMF.com
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mondshine Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2006 Posts: 2770 Location: The World's Motor Capital
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Use a Canton/Mecca filter, and never worry about bursting filters again.
Good luck, Mondshine |
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Captain Spalding Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 2519 Location: . . . in denial.
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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GI Joe wrote: |
Hope I don't get blasted for this one! LOL!!
I have routed my oil lines, but I am not convinced it's the safest/best route available... |
If I were you I would get a handful of 45° and 90° brass elbows and play around a little. Every inch away from the exhaust pipes that you can get will make a huge difference. Maybe find a path above the no. 4 exhaust pipe, between the bend in the bit of pipe going into the muffler and the end of the exhaust pipe?
BTW, I agree with the suggestion of high temp hose that vgajames made.
GI Joe wrote: |
Ya'll have me lost here. I've heard nothing of bursting oil filters. My local Speed shop has built most of the engines in this area and probably worked on Every ACVW around here, this is what he uses/recommends.
This isn't a monster engine, just a mild 1915. What am I missing?
Burst pressure, Bypass pressure?? |
These are esoteric issues, to be sure, and the Mann W719/5 your mechanic set you up with is perfectly adequate. It's a good general purpose filter. That's the short answer. I have a 1915 like you, and for a filter I use either a Mahle OC-28 or a Mann W920/17. Both are OEM for a Porsche 914. But like I said, the W719/5 is fine.
About the pressure ratings:
Burst pressure is just what it sounds like — the pressure at which the canister will burst and dump all your engine oil on the pavement. Sudden violent accelerations (like drag racing) can cause drastically elevated oil pressure and once in a while an oil filter will burst. The other thing that can drastically raise the oil pressure and burst the oil filter canister is if there is a blockage or other malfunction in the oil system. Burst filters don't happen often. I've been a car enthusiast for 35 years and vjajames is the only one I've ever heard say he's actually witnessed it.
Bypass pressure: there is a bypass valve in the oil filter. Its purpose is to allow the oil to pass straight through the filter without going through the filter medium. Why would you want this?
Imagine that over time the filter medium gets clogged. It takes more and more pressure to push the oil through the clogged medium, and at some point not enough oil will pass through to provide adequate lubrication. To prevent that, the bypass valve will shunt the oil through without having to pass through the medium. On the plus side, this prevents the engine from being starved of oil. On the minus side, the engine is getting unfiltered oil.
Another situation where the bypass valve comes into use is in cold weather when thick oil is in use. Before the oil gets up to temperature it will pass more slowly through the filter and can increase oil system pressure and even cause the motor to be starved for oil. The bypass valve will shunt the oil straight through until the oil temperature rises and the viscosity decreases. Same plusses and minuses apply.
I'm not terribly worried about burst pressure. But for those who are:
The K&N HP 3001 has a burst pressure rating of 550 p.s.i..
I have not found a reference for the Mann filter, but the Mahle counterpart (Mahle also makes OEM filters for VW, BMW, Mercedes, etc. and they are almost always spec'd the same) is rated at 37 bar, or about 507 p.s.i.. |
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vgajames Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002 Posts: 805 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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I used to use only Fram HP1 but now they are made in Mexico and apparantly not as good of quality.The K&N HP3001 is a great filter and i have used the HP1 version of a Wix filter also.I really like those but only NAPA carrys them here and they don't stay on the shelf long.Oriellys and Pep Boys always have the K&N however.I have been doing High Performance aircooled VW since 1991 and seen about 3 or 4 oil filters blow up.One on a circle track race bug, two sand rails and a drag bug.
These guys put a Fram PH8 on instead of the Fram HP1.I remember i told the guy on the one sandrail that is the wrong filter.He laughed jumped in and took off and about 3rd gear a big puff mist cloud behind his car.
I said i told ya so (big grin).Its usually more common to see when ya start the car cold and rev it really high at start up. |
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Hyatt181 Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2004 Posts: 128
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Years ago I went to using o-berg filters fits nicely on the bumper bracket and you can take them apart see whats in it, clean and put back together. |
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Captain Spalding Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 2519 Location: . . . in denial.
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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vgajames wrote: |
. . . I have been doing High Performance aircooled VW since 1991 and seen about 3 or 4 oil filters blow up.One on a circle track race bug, two sand rails and a drag bug. . . |
Ah, what one would call "extreme" use on the track or the dunes, but abuse on the street. This brings to mind something that bears mentioning. A "high performance" oil filter might not be the best choice for normal street driving. (Getting close to the edge of my expertise here) the lower relief bypass pressure on the HP3001 might be better for racing, but maybe not so for normal street driving. |
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vgajames Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002 Posts: 805 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hyatt181 wrote: |
Years ago I went to using o-berg filters fits nicely on the bumper bracket and you can take them apart see whats in it, clean and put back together. |
Those are not for the faint of heart first time you see what all it picked up on your newly built motor that you thought you had surgically clean put together.It picks up "everything"... |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I ran a 1915 in college and it would swell the oil filter at a idle during cold weather. Never actually split one, just plumped them, like the old Ball Park Franks hotdog commercial. At that time, (early 80's) the only filters I could get were the PH 8A's. Ever time I would change oil and filter, the new filter would plump in just seconds. I was running too big a pump at 36 mm. I put just a touch over 100,000 miles on that engine and countless filters.
last year a helped a buddy break in his engine. 2236 street car engine, 32 mm pump and on fire up, raised the rpm to 2000 for cam break in and exploded two filters within seconds on fire up. The engine was on a pan without a body and I was holding the cross bar linkage keeping it going and got to see it happen before my eyes. He now runs a K&N 3001 and all is fine.
I have a 2165 in my '59 single cab bus and run the K&N 3001 with no problems on the filter, but I did run the oil lines between # 3 and # 4 exhaust pipes like the above picture, and burnt a hole in one line after about 250 miles. I relocated it up through the rear breast plate and over to the left side fender well behind the tire. Better protected than down below too. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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GI Joe Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2005 Posts: 2012 Location: Athens, TN
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Get that Thing done GI Joe! I want to see it at CYW in just over a month.
Bring the oil lines up through the rear engine breast plate, near the hole where the left fan shroud heat exchanger tube passes through.
I bought my rubber line from a hydraulic fluid power store. Gates 8 LOC 1/2 inch 300 psi working pressure. Part number for Gates is GL06029. Rubber with braided cloth exterior. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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GI Joe Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2005 Posts: 2012 Location: Athens, TN
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Yes, my oil filter in my bus is in the engine bay, sort of. The bus has a large amount of room just behind the left rear wheel well back out of the way. When I have to rebuild my Thing engine, I will full flow the case and mount mine on the spare left air cleaner mount. I want it inside to protect it from debris while off roading. I do not punish mine off road, just creap around, but do not want to get stranded by a branch poked into the filter.
Here is a mount I frabricated for a street only buggy I built several years ago, but I think the lower heat exchanger would run right into it.
I will have my '73 Thing at CYW. We will be there a few days early and drive it through the mountians, maybe to Cherokee. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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GI Joe Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2005 Posts: 2012 Location: Athens, TN
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Understood. I thought of using that air cleaner bracket as well, but I really want to keep the mess factor Outside of the engine bay. I'm strictly on road with Our Thing! I may make a expanded metal "cage" for the filter where it is, just to give a little more peice of mind from road debris, yet still allow air flow to help cool.!
OK, edited for re-route pic..
Here is what I came up with. I'll get some high temp header wrap for the lines and probably make a bracket to come off the heat box/windage tray bolt to secure them to. Although they're pretty tight as they are.
This angle is weird, but they are no lower than the heat box, so clearance isn't an issue as I thought.
I do still want to make an expanded metal "cage" for the filter though!
_________________ '74 Thing, "Our Thing"....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=60
'71 Beetle RPU
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8080337#8080337
www.NLEOMF.com
Respect, Honor, Remember |
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strelnik Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2010 Posts: 352 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Hyatt181 wrote: |
Years ago I went to using o-berg filters fits nicely on the bumper bracket and you can take them apart see whats in it, clean and put back together. |
Since I am a newbie with respect to gasser VWs, can you give more details on the " o-berg" system? Or just spell out the name and I'll do my own research as I rebuild mine. Thanks! _________________ L'audace! L'audace! Toujours l'audace! |
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Captain Spalding Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 2519 Location: . . . in denial.
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:26 am Post subject: |
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I think that's Oberg. |
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FV195 Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 480 Location: carlisile, pa
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:33 am Post subject: |
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I can't beleve how many of you are useing rubber oil lines? guess I spoiled here in Florida have a shop that will make SS lines on the spot. I mounted mine behind the driverside rear wheel. SS oil lines. I know could damage filter with rocks coming off tire. but I do not off road my thing. will post picts. when I get it back from front end rebuild.
THOR |
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GI Joe Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2005 Posts: 2012 Location: Athens, TN
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:05 am Post subject: |
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FV195 wrote: |
I can't beleve how many of you are useing rubber oil lines? |
Every stainless line I've ever used was lined internally with.... yes, Rubber! Not arguing the strength/aesthetics of braided stainless, but it's still rubber line....(I'll go to stainless when I can afford it)
Unless you've got some real fancy schmancy stainless line that is braided so tight it holds fluid at pressure... I'd like your source for these too!
Don't read this the wrong way, I'm new here! _________________ '74 Thing, "Our Thing"....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=60
'71 Beetle RPU
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8080337#8080337
www.NLEOMF.com
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FV195 Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 480 Location: carlisile, pa
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I'd like your source for these too!
I got my hoses at Amazon hose in Tampa, Fl.for hoses, fittings and all was less that $40 made while I waited.
funny thing is they are in the same building as Fisher Buggies.
so many sources for VW parts hereit is a mecca!
THOR |
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GI Joe Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2005 Posts: 2012 Location: Athens, TN
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FV195 Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 480 Location: carlisile, pa
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:35 am Post subject: |
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I will post picts. when I get my car back, at local shop for ball joints, tie rods, steering dampener, and 4 shocks. putting an end to "death wobble" once and for all.
and I am running a Mann filter for now, going to switch to a fram hp1 next oil change. the Mann is what my guy had in stock.
THOR |
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