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1hotrodtruck Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:56 pm Post subject: AV Trans and AM Engine Questions |
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How does the AM Engine and AV Trans used in the Thing differ from Standard VW Bettle / Supper Bettle Engine and Trans? |
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SilverThing Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004 Posts: 810 Location: Everett
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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AM engine is essentially the same as the 1600 used by beetles. The difference with the case itself is that it has mounting points for a skid plate (buses used the same mounting points on their engine cases for a support bar). Besides that, there's nothing unique about the case from a technical standpoint. The intake and carburetor are unique to the Thing, but beetle parts interchange readily (and often are already changed out at this point). The cooling shroud on 73 Things is a doghouse unit without heat provisions, which makes it rare in the US. The exhaust is unique, but is often rusted out or has been replaced by now. The rest of the engine uses the same parts as other 1600cc engines.
AV transmissions have lower gearing than beetle units. Particularly in 4th gear. They are single sidecover cases, which are stronger than the earlier dual sidecover cases, but not quite as strong as the 75 and later cases from my understanding. The ring and pinion is a 4.125 and the gearing on 1-3 is the same as beetles up through 1972 with the 4.125 ring and pinion, but 4th gear is lower. 1973 and later beetles have 3.88 ring and pinions (all of the gears are taller). The ring and pinion in AV transmissions are typically made by Klingelnberg or Oerlikon, which both are considered stronger than the Gleason ones (Oerlikon is considered to be stronger than Klingelnberg). The AV transmission has output flanges for larger CV joints which are both stronger and have more articulation than beetles. The nose cone is the same as 72 and earlier beetles. _________________ "I like how everyone likes talking about Zeke's Thing yet he's the only one that's ever seen it." - Katie
"I've seen pictures..." - Jeremy |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17273 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:13 am Post subject: |
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SilverThing wrote: |
The ring and pinion in AV transmissions are typically made by Klingelnberg or Oerlikon, which both are considered stronger than the Gleason ones |
I've looked inside hundreds of AV and AW Thing/Type 181 transmissions and I have never seen a Klink R&P. They are either G type or O type. I'd say it's about 50/50. It is my guess that the O type was the spec, and if they ran out on the production line, they would sub in a G type.
The 4 forward gears in a Thing trans are the same as in a Beetle trans.
3.78
2.06
1.26
.93
So the only difference between a Thing trans and a Beetle trans is
R&P 4.12 vs. 3.88
Flanges: 100mm vs. 90mm
Nose cone: early 2 bolt vs. late 3 bolt _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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SilverThing Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004 Posts: 810 Location: Everett
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Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Bruce, you're right. I had it backwards in my mind. I'm not sure if they spec'd one or not. I imagine that they just used what was available. I seem to recall reading something about the difference between each of them and that Klingelnberg tend to be more expensive than the others (or couldn't be made in the same volumes - I forget). I imagine it might be like electrical parts (starters, generators, etc) where Bosch and Garbe Lahmeyer were both approved manufacturers, but more than 90% of the parts you will see will be Bosch.
My comment on the gearing was the difference between 4.125 beetle transmissions and the Thing transmission as far as what the driver would notice. Beetles up through 72 had 3.80, 2.06, 1.26, and 0.89 with a 4.125 r/p (essentially a taller 4th gear than the Thing). 73 and later beetles had 3.78, 2.6, 1.26, and 0.93 with a 3.875 r/p. _________________ "I like how everyone likes talking about Zeke's Thing yet he's the only one that's ever seen it." - Katie
"I've seen pictures..." - Jeremy |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17273 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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SilverThing wrote: |
.... something about the difference between each of them and that Klingelnberg tend to be more expensive than the others (or couldn't be made in the same volumes - |
I think it is the speed at which they can be machined. I think the K and O are slower processes, and therefore more expensive to make than the common G. I've seen fascinating videos on youtube showing the two types being machined. One has a rotating cutting head that cuts the pinion teeth one at a time, while the other has the pinion spinning while being cut. Did some searching:
http://youtu.be/7paLPW3CjEs
http://youtu.be/tNks3OdE-FE _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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SilverThing Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004 Posts: 810 Location: Everett
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Those videos were really cool to watch! Thanks for sharing
I know you already got the ZFs out of them, but there wouldn't happen to be any of the AW code cases themselves still around? _________________ "I like how everyone likes talking about Zeke's Thing yet he's the only one that's ever seen it." - Katie
"I've seen pictures..." - Jeremy |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17273 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:45 am Post subject: |
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SilverThing wrote: |
Those videos were really cool to watch! Thanks for sharing
I know you already got the ZFs out of them, but there wouldn't happen to be any of the AW code cases themselves still around? |
I have one. It's a complete gearbox mit ZF.
It has an interesting past.
I found it in Santa Ana, El Salvador north of San Salvador. Normally I am forced to buy the whole gearbox to get the ZF because they don't want to part it out. In the past I have paid for the whole thing, then opened it up right in front of the seller to "verify that the diff is right". Then I load up the diff and leave the rest. But on the day I found the AW gearbox it was late in the afternoon and it was really HOT that day, so I didn't feel like working on it in the hot sun. I thought I would just bring it to my friend's shop in Guatemala City and gut it there. By the time I got there, I lost interest in tearing it apart, so I just left it on the floor on the passenger side of my car and brought it all the way home. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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