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Flasher Relays: Substituting 3-Terminal for 4-Terminal
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Flasher Relays: Substituting 3-Terminal for 4-Terminal Reply with quote

How do you make a 3-terminal turn signal relay work in a '62 bus with emergency flashers?

Originally, there was a three terminal relay with the case as ground, one terminal went to the fuse block and the emergency flasher relay, one terminal went to the turn signal switch and the emergency flasher switch, and the last one went to the indicator light on the dash.

There was also a four terminal relay for the emergency flashers. One terminal came from the turn signal relay (power), one terminal went to the switch and the passenger side light, one went to the switch (and on through to the drivers' side light), and the last went to the emergency flasher switch.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I've been told by numerous people that to make a three prong switch work, you simply put the indicator light wire with the terminal that goes to the switches. Unfortunately, the indicator light is grounded via the speedometer housing (which is how the light works), so it just grounds the relay out. With the first relay, this caused the indicator light (only) to blink very quickly. I tried a brand new relay (nearly every electrical part on the bus has been replaced by the way) and it buzzed angrily and the indicator light glowed somewhat less brightly.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

For all the money I've put into making sure all of the electrics work like they're supposed to, I'm not going to settle for not having turn signal indicator lights. I've read and heard repeatedly that people are running these things successfully, but I don't have any idea how. Who is running a three prong relay with 4-way flashers, and how are you doing it???????
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ToolBox
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am running the relay from an early bay in my 59. It is 4 terminal and functions correctly. I think I pulled it from a 69 or 70.
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BarryL Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that 3-prong sketch is correct. Where did that come from?
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big bus mike
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason, I've got a 3 prong flasher in my '65 with functional 4-ways. Here's how I did it:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Pin 31 is ground (yellow in my bus... I know but it's all I had at the time)

Pin 49 is power in (input). This should be a Black/White/Green wire from the fuse block and the Black/Purple wire from the headlight switch.

Pin 49a is power out (output). This should be The light Blue wire going to the dash light, The Black/White/Green wire going to the flasher switch, and the Black/White/Green wire going to the turn signal switch.

Something funky I've noticed is my front turn signals light up on one side with the brakes applied, but I attribute this to the Wolfsburg West turn signal switch not returning properly to center.

Hope this helps.
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BarryL wrote:
I don't think that 3-prong sketch is correct. Where did that come from?

I did it. I was demonstrating what I've been told to do using it. It's not right, and it doesn't work, and I'm trying to make something work.

I talked to Oscar at WW this afternoon, and he said he had this exact issue with another car in the recent past. I'll be trying out his solution... Saturday morning I guess...

If it works, I'll post the solution as soon as I can.
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"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
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big bus mike
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was his solution to buy one of their 9 pin flasher update / upgrade kits? If so, save your money, I've got a new one you can have. Hit me up on FB.

Also had a recent issue with a bus with a 3 pin flasher. It would buzz loudly and not flash with the idiot light hooked up. With it unhooked, it worked like a charm. Put a 4 pin in and it worked correctly.
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope. It sounds like you're having the EXACT same issue I'm having. He said he had recently solved the same issue with the "Foose Bus" and told me what they did there.

Essentially, you have to separate the power sources between the t-flasher and the e-flasher (the two wires on 49). The fuse block wire needs to be moved over one fuse on the fuse block (the turn signals will only work when the key is on now, but that's more or less how they should) and the e-flasher relay wire gets plugged into the last fuse (works even with the keys out, like it should).

I don't see how it fixes the issue of the relay grounding out through the indicator light, but it supposedly has something to do with how the solid state unit reacts differently than the old-school bi-metallic units. With my guitar/amp building/repairing background, I know enough about analog electronics, but I've never messed with solid state stuff save to get rid of it.

I won't be able to even think about actually messing with it until tomorrow. The two wires on terminal 49 share a connector in the wiring harness, so before I start cutting, I'm going to use a jumper wire to test it out. Should be simple enough, so I'll post how it went. Solve the mystery for everyone!
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"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will anxiously be waiting for your results, as I have the 'buzzing' on my recently rewired panel too.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm...
Do you have the original working emergency flasher relay box?
If you do, using a three-prong turn signal flasher and having a working indicator light is very easy.
I remember just having to add an additional ground wire, but I'd have to look at my truck to remember how I did it.
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the WW reproduction (I replaced very nearly everything in the bus that has anything to do with moving electrons). If you have a solution though, let us know! I've been actively trying to find an answer to this question for two weeks now.
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Jason Hopper

-'57 German Market Karmann Ghia (DD)
-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
"Don't feed the Shitty Parts Monster!" -Me
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huzzah!!! I ran home on my lunch break to try this out and it worked! I might have been wrong about the e-flashers working without the key in, but it works!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The diagram just about says it all. Note that the turn signal relay power moves over one fuse and the e-flasher relay power takes its place. If something isn't clear, ask and I'll do my best to answer. Special thanks to Oscar at Wolfsbürg West!
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Jason Hopper

-'57 German Market Karmann Ghia (DD)
-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
"Don't feed the Shitty Parts Monster!" -Me


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:51 pm    Post subject: Fuse two had no open spots Reply with quote

Confused

Time to make a trip to the FLAPS
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dirtylawnchair
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long day today on the 63. I replaced the stock 6 volt flasher with a 12V Tridon EP35 with 49, 49a, and 31.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Hooked it up like so
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Now... the problem is when I hook the battery back up the flasher "tick tocks" as if the blinker is on but no lights flash. I have turn signals that work correctly.

Why am I getting the "tick tock" with ignition off and turn signal in the neutral position?

So if I am seeing this correctly, remove the Black and Purple wire from 49 (+) and hook it to fuse #1 ( far right )
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the issue is turn signals dont need power with engine off? Not quite understanding the logic of moving your power source. Unless with ignition off, the ignition system is isolated? Oh wait, I bet the e relay is loosing power and the turn signal flasher is feeding the e flasher relay?
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dirtylawnchair
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quartermilecamel wrote:
So the issue is turn signals dont need power with engine off? Not quite understanding the logic of moving your power source. Unless with ignition off, the ignition system is isolated? Oh wait, I bet the e relay is loosing power and the turn signal flasher is feeding the e flasher relay?


I am going to test this with gator clips first to test.


Thinking back....I don't remember seeing the turn signal indicator light in the speedo light up....Could a blown/bad bulb cause any of this?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fixed. All works as it should.

I move the Black/Green/White wire coming off 49 to a keyed power source. Originally it was routed to the constant power fuse on the far right. I moved it one left. Only difference is my turn signals only work with the key on.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That difference is the way they are supposed to work I believe.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hold on.

The ticking of the flasher when the turn signal switch is not on is a simple fix. The original poster stated that the indicator light grounds to the speedo housing. This is not true. Look at the back of the speedo where the indicator light, gen light and oil light all go. You'll notice a rubber insulation that prevents them from grounding on the speedo. All three of these lights ground elsewhere on the car. For example, the oil light's ground is at the oil pressure switch. There is a tab there where a wire plugs giving power to the 3 lights mentioned. This wire should be a switched power wire... usually a black wire. once that is wired properly, simply do as was stated in the original post and run the wire going from 49a to the indicator light.

It sounds like you have a ground wire on the tab that powers the indicator light gen light, and oil light. Wired like this, the gen light won't come on when the key is on, but will light up when the engine is running and the oil light won't work at all.

I just had a customers ghia that was wired all wrong like this and it had the same symptoms. Just remember, the indicator, gen, and oil lights are not grounded to the speedo housing and need a switched hot wire running to them. the rest of the housing has a ground wire attached for the high beam indicator light and illumination lights.


Last edited by Matt Miller on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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dirtylawnchair
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt Miller wrote:
Hold on.

The ticking of the flasher when the turn signal switch is not on is a simple fix. The original poster stated that the indicator light grounds to the speedo housing. This is not true. Look at the back of the speedo where the indicator light, gen light and oil light all go. You'll notice a rubber insulation that prevents them from grounding on the speedo. All three of these lights ground elsewhere on the car. For example, the oil light's ground is at the oil pressure switch. There is a tab there where a wire plugs giving power to the 3 lights mentioned. This wire should be a switched power wire... usually a black wire. once that is wired properly, simply do as was stated in the original post and run the wire that was originally going from 49a to the indicator light, from 49 to the indicator light.

It sounds like you have a ground wire on the tab that powers the indicator light gen light, and oil light. Wired like this, the gen light won't come on when the key is on, but will light up when the engine is running and the oil light won't work at all.

I just had a customers ghia that was wired all wrong like this and it had the same symptoms. Just remember, the indicator, gen, and oil lights are not grounded to the speedo housing and need a switched hot wire running to them. the rest of the housing has a ground wire attached for the high beam indicator light and illumination lights.


I have no idea if that was a statement or a question but I did not mess with any speedo wiring. The ONLY wire I touched was the the Black/Green/White wire coming from 49(+) on the relay that would normally go to the hot fuse all the way to the right. I moved it one fuse station left to the keyed power or auxiliary fuse.

Other than that it is wire4d just like this
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

and everything works as it should.
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Matt Miller
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ it was a statement to the original post and to the comment from dirtylawnchair's flasher "tick tocking" while the key was off and the signal switch in neutral position

Usually the ticking when the signal switch is in neutral comes from the flasher being grounded through the 49a connector.

I'm only putting my experience with a customers car I had recently while it's fresh on my mind. If anyone in the future has similar problems and reads this thread, it could help them.
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