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vw_hank Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2001 Posts: 5371 Location: Everett WA
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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runamoc wrote: |
vw_hank wrote: |
WTF is that??? |
What the Germans would have done if they didn't care how much it cost in extra wire. |
Thy do make little wire junction boxes, that all the wires can hook to, then you have 1(one) wire going to the battery. lot cleaner and A more professional look. But hay if its working _________________ 1302s sunroof..
1600cc motor. Glenn ring 010. full toplineparts.com suspension. factory front disk brakes. Tram type-3 rear brakes. Hurst shifter. empi-8's. low-back's. tons of mods! |
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vw_hank Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2001 Posts: 5371 Location: Everett WA
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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oreana123 wrote: |
Just one more thing concerning voltage drops...the ground side of the start ciruit depends on that flex strap that connects the trans/engine to the frame electrically. If the strap is missing, or if it has poor contacts to either the frame or tansmission, you will have start circuit problems.
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Very true!! I at one time got a hard start rely( never installed it) as I have posted before in another thread, I never had A problem with starting my car! then one day I went to go to work and terned the key and the lights came on but nothing else happened checked every thing I could before I jumped in the other car, got home from work and tried it, it started right up I continued to have this problem for about 2 months, every one told me I had to install a hard start kit,, so I broke down and got one, But I just couldn't believe that was the problem I had this car for 10 years and it never did this!! so I started tearing the car apart knowing that there was A problem somewhere, and I was going to find it! well to make a long story short,, my ground strap was gone I mean it was gone!! I don't know were it went but it was not there put on A brand new one,, problem fixed 2years later and not one time has it not started _________________ 1302s sunroof..
1600cc motor. Glenn ring 010. full toplineparts.com suspension. factory front disk brakes. Tram type-3 rear brakes. Hurst shifter. empi-8's. low-back's. tons of mods! |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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If your talking about the one between the gearbox and the chassis it's only there as a double up.
The engine being bolted to the gearbox, gearbox bolted to the chassis, chassis has a strap to the battery negative so it will earth through all that, the strap just makes doubly sure the ground is there as bolts gets loose/dirty/rusty and the rubber tranny mounts move around etc.
It's just like with non elephants feet taillights, you can disconnect the earth wire in the engine bay and all the lights will still work cos they're bolted to fenders which are bolted to the body which is grounded back the battery through the chassis.
The no start without a relay depends on the quality of the ignition switch.
the genuine german ones have bigger contacts in them than new replacements and it also depends on the state of your wiring, connectors and said ground strap. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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runamoc Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006 Posts: 5593 Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
The engine being bolted to the gearbox, gearbox bolted to the chassis, chassis has a strap to the battery negative so it will earth through all that, the strap just makes doubly sure the ground is there as bolts gets loose/dirty/rusty and the rubber tranny mounts move around etc. |
A VW engine and transaxle are isolated from ground. There is some connection to ground thru the axles at the drums. Not enough for the starter or alt/gen return current. Unless you have solid metal motor mounts, the gearbox is not bolted to the chassis, electrically speaking. _________________ Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 44 yrs - Plan B: '81 Rabbit Diesel LS Deluxe - Plan C: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs-
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
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runamoc Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006 Posts: 5593 Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:03 am Post subject: |
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vw_hank wrote: |
runamoc wrote: |
vw_hank wrote: |
WTF is that??? |
What the Germans would have done if they didn't care how much it cost in extra wire. |
Thy do make little wire junction boxes, that all the wires can hook to, then you have 1(one) wire going to the battery. lot cleaner and A more professional look. But hay if its working |
You can have the 'look' if you think that's what makes it professional. I went with the 'professional' electrical necessities. Point A to point B direct connections. Not thru a remote power distribution 'junction' box with needless extra connections. On my pos battery post, one red wire goes directly to the alt. One goes to 'helper' relay right beside it. One goes straight to the ignition switch. The other one goes straight to the headlight switch. As for one wire, 2 #10s carry more current than 1 #8. Electricity 101 _________________ Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 44 yrs - Plan B: '81 Rabbit Diesel LS Deluxe - Plan C: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs-
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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runamoc wrote: |
A VW engine and transaxle are isolated from ground. There is some connection to ground thru the axles at the drums. Not enough for the starter or alt/gen return current. Unless you have solid metal motor mounts, the gearbox is not bolted to the chassis, electrically speaking. |
In theory you're correct but they earth through that many points like axles and suspension, clutch and throttle cables, gear shift linkage, generator/alternator ground to body wire etc etc which is why the 100s of ones like Hanks that have had tranny work and the strap never reinstalled still run.
It was put there for a reason and will work much better with it though so there's no excuse for it to be missing.
I've always run a 0 Guage wire from the neg battery terminal to the engine block just for added measure. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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cookrw Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2009 Posts: 873 Location: Augusta, KY
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:47 am Post subject: |
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I am doing this now, and where does 87a go? _________________ '71 Super 'Vert
'84 Vanagon GL (w/ Sunroof!)
'96 Jeep Cherokee |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Nowhere, leave it unconnected. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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cookrw wrote: |
I am doing this now, and where does 87a go? |
87 closes when powered and 87a opens when powered.
Leave it unconnected. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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cookrw Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2009 Posts: 873 Location: Augusta, KY
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Joel wrote: |
Nowhere, leave it unconnected. |
My electronics background is screaming at me that floating connections are EVIL... Can I ground it? _________________ '71 Super 'Vert
'84 Vanagon GL (w/ Sunroof!)
'96 Jeep Cherokee |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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cookrw wrote: |
Joel wrote: |
Nowhere, leave it unconnected. |
My electronics background is screaming at me that floating connections are EVIL... Can I ground it? |
If you do it will create a dead short _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
Last edited by Glenn on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cookrw Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2009 Posts: 873 Location: Augusta, KY
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Glenn wrote: |
cookrw wrote: |
Joel wrote: |
Nowhere, leave it unconnected. |
My electronics background is screaming at me that floating connections are EVIL... Can I ground it? |
If you do it will create a dead short |
Good enough reason for me! _________________ '71 Super 'Vert
'84 Vanagon GL (w/ Sunroof!)
'96 Jeep Cherokee |
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docdanracy Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2012 Posts: 1118 Location: Auburn, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Installed a HSR about a week or so ago...took all of 5 minutes...took longer to remove and reinstall the rear seat bottom!
Have driven the car on a couple of long hot drives, and the car now restarts when hot...prior to this it would occasionally fail to start with the ignition switch and I would have to bump start it. _________________ Doc
1970 Sunroof Bug Yukon Yellow (L19K)
Custom 6.5x15” 914 Sport Wheels wrapped in 185x65x15 Contis
Empi shifter, full compliment of gauges, 1679 with mild cam, stock induction
SOLD: 1974 Marina Blue Standard Beetle undergoing restoration/preservation
1679 with Kadrons and header/QP
914 sport wheels 5.5" ET40 wrapped in 195x65x15 Kumhos |
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jasonspiffy Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2012 Posts: 15 Location: Central California
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Sweet this is just what I was looking for. Very clear info. I'm not sure and just to be clear, the relay is designed to keep the power out of the ignition switch and as close to the starter from the battery as possible correct? I hope this will aid with my problem. I am also going to install a new ignition switch and possibly down the road a push button starter. Gotta work out security of it, maybe using my high beam switch on the column since it doesn't activate high beams =D |
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68IHscout Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010 Posts: 3122 Location: santa ana ca
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Whats the part number for the relay to use ? |
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Tim Donahoe Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012 Posts: 11739 Location: Redding, CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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68, just go to MidAmerica and get there Bosch hard-start relay harness. It's all done up for you. And it's Bosch--and kind of cheap, too.
Tim |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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68IHscout wrote: |
Whats the part number for the relay to use ? |
Give this site a read to learn all about the Bosch-style 12v SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay.
http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp
It is very likely you can find it as a generic relay in the DIY section of your FLAPS. For the purposes of this HSR you could also use any SPST relay rated at 20A or more. 30A is a more common rating. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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68IHscout Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010 Posts: 3122 Location: santa ana ca
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys , ill just get the ready made one ... |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26299 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if this is a concern any more, but I remember back like 15 years ago, we had to double check the Bosch WR-1 kits we sold for proper wiring of the harness - sometimes they'd be assembled with the wires plugged into the wrong holes in the relay socket. |
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Sirreed Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2015 Posts: 9 Location: Lakeport
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