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TKE381
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Stillwater, OK
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 Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: EV (electric vehicle) Conversion of a Thing |
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Anyone done this yet? I'm talking about a 100% electric Thing drive train.
My local electrical Coop wants to assist me in converting my Thing to electric. Their interest lies in the uniqueness of the Thing and its relative low curb weight. They also want to use it for promotions.
They even offered to get me a recording of a mean VW to play on the stereo so I don't miss the sound.
There would still be a gas tank for the heater.
If there is anyone who has converted or can steer us in the direction of some knowledgable folks, it would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance. |
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Captain Spalding
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Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:33 am Post subject: Re: EV (electric vehicle) Conversion of a Thing |
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I've always thought the Thing would be a great car for conversion. No air conditioning to worry about - no electric windows, door locks, etc. - there's very little to put a drain on the batteries other than propulsion.
I have done a little research into this, a long time ago. IIRC, the big question is whether you will run with the VW transaxle or go without the gearbox and just run directly off the motor. The second way was better in terms of speed and range, but much more expensive. I thought I had saved some bookmarks but I can't seem to find them. If you google Porsche 914 Electric conversion you will find all the information you need.
When you say the CoOp is offering to "assist" you, in what form will that assistance come? Design and manufacture of battery cages? Re-engineering the suspension to handle the weight of the batteries? The loan of a battery cable terminal swage tool? Labor? |
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Emeritusx
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2008
Posts: 2775
Location: 12 inches behind the wheel
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 am Post subject: |
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http://www.e-volks.com/ is one...
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82 Westy ☢, 66 Splitty ☮, 73 Type 181 ✠ |
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bedlab
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2008
Posts: 54
Location: Flatulachia, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Spend some time here: http://www.evalbum.com/
Search by make and you will find plenty of ACVW conversions. Lead acid flooded golf cart batteries at 6, 8 or 12 volts are still the easiest, least expensive and most bullet proof choice.
Don't pay too much attention to anyone that does not drive an ev. Electric vehicles work well within their defined limits. I have over 5000 miles on a ghia conversion that I did 3 years ago with all used and scrounged parts (but for the battery pack). I have never been stranded away from home.
The components came from an electric powered Thing that was restored back to ICE power.
Check out the ev album trading post for used parts or abandoned projects. I would keep the tranny and the clutch. I would have loved to convert a Thing
I can go fast or far but not fast and far. Freeway speeds are no problem. You will not save any money but you can have a ton of fun. Don't listen to the haters about just shifting the pollution around and the dangers of batteries. Be smart and safe and above all remember to have fun. |
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Captain Spalding
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| bedlab wrote: |
| You will not save any money but you can have a ton of fun. |
I understand that completely. My brother had a Toyota RAV4 EV. Before he bought it, we sat down and looked at the price difference of a ICE RAV4 plus fuel vs. the RAV4 EV plus electricity. While the electricity cost much less than the fuel, the EV version of the car cost twice as much as the gas burner. He would have had to drive the EV well over 100k mi. before it would pay off, and that's without factoring in a battery pack change or two. Not cheap, that EV, but it sure was fun.
I wonder if a circumstance exists where it would be economically favorable to convert a Thing. Say for example the engine needed to be replaced, and instead of replacing it with an ICE you made the electric conversion. Now, in your economic feasibility calculation you could legitimately subtract the cost of a new or rebuilt gas engine from the cost of the EV conversion. |
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GeorgeL
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Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| I wonder if a circumstance exists where it would be economically favorable to convert a Thing. |
I think the OP hit the nail right on the head:
| TKE381 wrote: |
| My local electrical Coop wants to assist me in converting my Thing to electric. |
The conversion is quite favorable if one gets someone else to pay for it. That's the basic premise that drives the entire alternative energy industry! |
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TKE381
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Stillwater, OK
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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The Coop is considering helping with purchasing the hardware and installing a separate meter at my home to measure the power used. They are studying the feasibility of electric cars, but only have one all electric car on their grid that they are studying. They would ask that I attend their annual meetings and show it offin local parades, at football games, etc. All stuff I do anyway. Might have to tolerate a CREC sticker or two, but it's a good trade if they buy the parts.
I appreciate all the info from you all. I also appreciate the lack of "haters". Coming from a family that is deeply involved in the oil and gas industry, I am not doing this as a "way to save the Earth". Just a new and exciting project. I intend to keep the gas engine and spend time rebuilding it for a future project, another car, or put back in the Thing. I'll keep you all posted on how it goes. My buddy at CREC is working on this pretty aggressively so I should know soon. |
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Semper_Dad
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Joined: May 14, 2005
Posts: 3510
Location: Indiana
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TKE381
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Stillwater, OK
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks Wannahave! That's pretty cool. |
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norcalmike
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2005
Posts: 4784
Location: Marina, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| My Thing was an EV at one time. my grandfather bought it with no engine back in 85 after the PO decided to use the motor in another project. |
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Ferretkona
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2005
Posts: 1306
Location: Columbia, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: EV (electric vehicle) Conversion of a Thing |
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| TKE381 wrote: |
| ,,,,There would still be a gas tank for the heater.,,,. |
I was looking at converting mine. I had decided it was better to go propane on the gas heater. My gas heater is still in the box, all parts there except fuel pump. The propane leaves a safer exhaust than gasoline. Just one more step to saving the planet.
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74 181 Thing
2008 Ford Sport Trac V8 4x4
2008 Ford Escape V6 |
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Pierre G
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Joined: April 28, 2007
Posts: 1771
Location: New Caledonia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| I wonder if a circumstance exists where it would be economically favorable to convert a Thing. |
Maybe with solar charge ?? You would have to add the price of solar charger though...But at least, it would be even more "green"...
I'm thinking of keeping my VWs alive with EV conversion when gas price will be too high, or there will be no more gas at all (if I'm still alive then). I also think that on all my VWs, the Thing is the best candidate for EV conversion, for the reasons you mentioned Captain...+ one : no more engine noise 
_________________
1976 181/Thing, 1967 fastback, 1973 squareback, 1964 microbus, 1967 Double Cab, 1969 westfalia (currently under resto), 1972 LM1C dune buggy, 1974 jean's bug, 1974 1303 (super beetle, currently under reassembly after new paint). |
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Captain Spalding
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Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Pierre G wrote: |
Maybe with solar charge ?? You would have to add the price of solar charger though...But at least, it would be even more "green"...
I'm thinking of keeping my VWs alive with EV conversion when gas price will be too high, or there will be no more gas at all (if I'm still alive then). I also think that on all my VWs, the Thing is the best candidate for EV conversion, for the reasons you mentioned Captain...+ one : no more engine noise |
The problem with solar power is that the amount of solar energy per square foot that reaches the earth isn't large enough to be practical.
The difficulty that electric cars run into is the balancing act between speed and range. Here in California, when GM's EV-1 came out, the government set up charging stations all over the state to allay fears that one would be stranded in their electric car without the wherewithal to recharge, especially in light of the fact that it took proprietary equipment to recharge the battery. This turned out to be a bit of a boondoggle for a few reasons: First, one had to rely on finding a charging station along whatever route one took that day. Second, each electric car manufacturer had their own proprietary design for their charging paddle, leaving municipalities with a choice of which standard their public charging stations would support. Third, the quantity of electric car sales never justified the expense of the public charging stations, which turned the whole exercise into something of a joke.
I have another solution in mind. What if electric cars were built with an exchangeable battery? A battery designed to an industry-wide standard? You could charge your battery at home, or you could pull into a battery station and, for a fee, have your depleted battery removed and then replaced with a charged battery. Your depleted battery would then be charged at the battery station and swapped into another car. It would take less time to swap batteries than a fill up at a gas station and would also remove the difficulty of limited range. If I could get 120 miles between battery changes I'd be happy with that. |
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TKE381
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Joined: October 12, 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Stillwater, OK
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Interesting idea Spaulding. Of course you'd also have to mount the removable battery in such a way that it could be easily accessed and removed. The batteries required, even the state of the art lithium, are still very heavy.
I know the estimates on solar arrays mounted on vehicles is about 1/8 of a full charge for a typical battery capacity for every 8 hours of sunlight. Not very efficient.
I live in a medium sized town that is 70 miles from any major city. I don't plan on driving out of town for many reasons (most related to my HUGE self-preservation gene). The 50-60 mile range expected out of lead acid batteries is sufficient for my needs. However, if I lived in a metropolis, I'd never even consider this modification. Too many miles and potential "getting stranded" scenarios.
The more I look into this project, the more interesting it is. There are many "kits", but I probably need to educated myself a bit more so I can make good decisions on the parts and setup I need. |
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Captain Spalding
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| TKE381 wrote: |
| Of course you'd also have to mount the removable battery in such a way that it could be easily accessed and removed. The batteries required, even the state of the art lithium, are still very heavy… |
I was imagining that something like a powered pallet jack would be used at the battery station.
| TKE381 wrote: |
| The more I look into this project, the more interesting it is. There are many "kits", but I probably need to educated myself a bit more so I can make good decisions on the parts and setup I need. |
The VW was among the first cars for which these kits were offered. As a result of that, the off-the-shelf VW kits tend to use the oldest technology.  At least that was the case a few years ago when I was researching this.
If I were embarking on this project, it would be a design goal of mine to fit the all the batteries within the engine and luggage compartments, and leave the rear seat and package tray empty.
| TKE381 wrote: |
| . . . HUGE self-preservation gene . . . |
Zombie Squad? |
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GeorgeL
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Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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The battery module exchange concept has been around for a while. I remember seeing it in a Popular Science type magazine in the '70s and it's likely that it was around long before that.
Here's a modern version:
Link
Before this becomes practical the manufacturers have to decide whether they will keep their batteries proprietary as a profit enhancer (as laptop computer makers do) or whether they want to standardize batteries and allow increased flexibility and range for owners. I have no faith that the manufacturers will go in the right direction on this. As was pointed out earlier, the manufacturers wouldn't even standardize their EV charging connections.
For the present problem it would be interesting to have a palletized battery that could be easily exchanged at home, but this would be quite extravagant for a personal local-use vehicle. In most cases the on-board batteries could be recharged sufficiently while the vehicle was idle at its home location to allow the vehicle to be used at will by a private owner.
The solar idea is interesting, but the way it pencils out there isn't enough solar energy incident on the footprint of a car to power that car. Each square meter receives only about a kW (or 1 HP) at midday. The only way to power a car with solar energy is with a large separate array storing energy that would eventually be used by the car.
(Ahh, yes, I am aware of the solar race cars, but they were essentially a high efficiency (expensive) solar array mounted on bicycle components that would move that array and a driver at a modest rate under ideal conditions. Not exactly a car for normal use.) |
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Captain Spalding
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| GeorgeL wrote: |
| Before this becomes practical the manufacturers have to decide whether they will keep their batteries proprietary as a profit enhancer (as laptop computer makers do) or whether they want to standardize batteries and allow increased flexibility and range for owners. I have no faith that the manufacturers will go in the right direction on this. As was pointed out earlier, the manufacturers wouldn't even standardize their EV charging connections. |
Yes, you are right. Defining the standard, I think, would have to be a matter of legislation. The paradigm would be a little different than laptop batteries. You might own the rights to a battery, but not a particular battery. When you went to the battery station, you would not sit and wait for your battery to be charged. You would take a different charged battery, and leave your spent battery at the station to be charged and subsequently put into someone else's car. It's it's the same idea as the place where you drop off your empty barbeque propane tank and take away a full one.
Another model to consider would be to have the battery and recharge infrastructure be like a utility. You don't own the batteries. The car company doesn't own them. The utility does. Built into the cost of the electricity you'd be buying from the battery station would be the cost of replacing older batteries with new ones, thereby ensuring that every time a battery is installed in the car it is in good condition. |
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GeorgeL
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Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| GeorgeL wrote: |
| Before this becomes practical the manufacturers have to decide whether they will keep their batteries proprietary as a profit enhancer (as laptop computer makers do) or whether they want to standardize batteries and allow increased flexibility and range for owners. I have no faith that the manufacturers will go in the right direction on this. As was pointed out earlier, the manufacturers wouldn't even standardize their EV charging connections. |
Yes, you are right. Defining the standard, I think, would have to be a matter of legislation. The paradigm would be a little different than laptop batteries. You might own the rights to a battery, but not a particular battery. When you went to the battery station, you would not sit and wait for your battery to be charged. You would take a different charged battery, and leave your spent battery at the station to be charged and subsequently put into someone else's car. It's it's the same idea as the place where you drop off your empty barbeque propane tank and take away a full one.
Another model to consider would be to have the battery and recharge infrastructure be like a utility. You don't own the batteries. The car company doesn't own them. The utility does. Built into the cost of the electricity you'd be buying from the battery station would be the cost of replacing older batteries with new ones, thereby ensuring that every time a battery is installed in the car it is in good condition. |
Both interesting ideas, but as soon as you define an industry-standard battery you immediately stifle innovation in a field that desperately needs improvement.
You also essentially double the battery costs per vehicle, since you now have to have a battery in the vehicle and another (or at least a fraction of one, depending upon charging rates) waiting in the replacement system. There would also be some interesting distribution problems to overcome, such as the need to stockpile charged batteries in rural "highway towns" where most of the traffic occurs during a certain part of the day.
The "own the rights to use a battery" idea would certainly solve one of the major problem facing electric vehicles, namely the large expense of replacing a bad battery pack. With an exchange system the replacement cost could be factored into the basic cost of the service so nobody gets hit with a big bill.
None of this "years down the road" stuff really addresses the basic problem of this thread which is electrifying a Thing. Still, it's fun to think about! |
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Captain Spalding
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Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm ready now.
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TKE381
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Joined: October 12, 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Stillwater, OK
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Nice Back to the Future reference. I plan to keep this Thing alive as long as I am. I have at least another 40-50 year I figure. Maybe I'll see the day we have fusion in a car! |
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