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jpstewart19
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Joined: May 10, 2011
Posts: 253
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
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 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject: Need Opinion - Automatic Transmission OK? |
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I need the group's opinion. I had recently made the mistake of mounting the engine with the Torque Converter (TC) mounted to the flex plate on my Automatic 1990 Vanagon (I did not know the proper way was to put the TC on the transmission shaft and then bolt the TC to the flex plate once the engine was mounted - History Here).
Anyway, I pulled the transmission and found the photo below (wanted to change the cooler anyway). When I first took it out, the oil pump shaft extended out a bit, but once I pushed it in it seems secure (doesn’t pull out). My concern is 1) It looks short compared to others I have seen online 2) it freely spins…is this correct?
Have I damaged this transmission in your opinion, or does all of this seem normal? Is there any way to verify the pump is not damaged?
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1985 Vanagon Westfalia Subie
1972 Super Beetle Convertible
1990 Vanagon GL "Winston" (Sold)
1980 Vanagon Westfalia “Rusty” (Sold)
1982 Vanagon Westfalia “Rusty II” (Sold)
1977 Smurf Blue Campmobile (Sold) |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:25 am Post subject: |
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The center shaft is the pump shaft. You should be able to remove it and inspect the other end. A good flashlight you can look down the turbine shaft and maybe see the pump drive and if it is intact. The pump shaft has a similar splines on the opposite end. They should appear straight and clean.
Unfortunately I can not comment on the picture you posted. From memory there are two versions out there and I would need the manual to tell the correct orientation which I don't have handy. If you have a manual, there should be two side by side pictures of both versions.
Be careful with the next shaft or turbine shaft. It a has some square cut rings on the far side that can be a little temperamental reinstalling through the differential.
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kourt
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Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1948
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:01 am Post subject: |
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The position of your pump shaft and other shafts is fine.
Here's a photo of the pump shaft extended too far:
Yours is just fine.
Make sure to replace your torque converter seal.
If you turn that central pump shaft by hand you should be able to hear or feel it turn the ATF pump at the forward end of the transmission. Yes, you can fully remove the pump shaft and inspect it.
kourt |
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BlueNorthWesty
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Joined: October 24, 2014
Posts: 348
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:05 am Post subject: |
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I just finished putting my transmission back in after having the final drive apart, so this is fresh in my mind. Notwithstanding RSXSR's comment about there being two types of pump splines, the look and description of yours makes me think there is a problem. Mine looked exactly like the illustration in the Bentley when it went back together.
The manual is clear about making sure the shaft seats all the way down so that it connects with the pump. Yours looks too far in, which may indicate damage to the pump or the spline on the other end. It should not spin too freely. When you turn it you should feel some resistance of gears moving through lubricant. If it just spins freely that's a problem. Try pulling it out a few inches and spin it, then put it all the way back in and spin it. There should be a noticeable difference in resistance.
I don't suppose you took any photos of it before you reinstalled the engine the first time?
While the engine is out, you should consider changing the torque converter seal (it has a blue/green ring on my photo).
_________________
1984 Medium Blue Vanagon Westfalia 2WD w/ rebuilt Auto, Peloquin differential, 3.27 R&P gears, 2002 Subaru 2.5L engine, Girling G60 front brake upgrade, PS, power mirrors
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=610481&highlight= |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:25 am Post subject: |
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I know there were different length pump shafts used on Transporters over the years. I am sure the 003 took a shorter shaft that the later boxes used in the Vanagons, but don't know if there were multiple shafts for the Vanagons. Other than the differences in length they all fit the same. You might want to measure your shaft length and report back.
FWIW, you never want to force the engine and tranny together by using the bolts to pull them up tight. |
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jpstewart19
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Joined: May 10, 2011
Posts: 253
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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So I tried to pull out the pump shaft to inspect, but it wont come out all the way. It comes out about 1/2 way and then takes the turbine shaft out with it. The turbine shaft then comes out quite a bit but also not all the way, which I assume is correct. So I'm not sure why the pump shaft wont come out.
Now the turbine shaft will not go all the way back in, similar to the photo I found below (not mine).
The pump shaft, if I try to put it back in, when I twist it, it seems to line up gears, but then goes beyond it, causing the original symptom of being too deep. What normally stops the shaft from going to deep?
If I take off the pan on the bottom of the differential, would I be able to see what is going on?
_________________
1985 Vanagon Westfalia Subie
1972 Super Beetle Convertible
1990 Vanagon GL "Winston" (Sold)
1980 Vanagon Westfalia “Rusty” (Sold)
1982 Vanagon Westfalia “Rusty II” (Sold)
1977 Smurf Blue Campmobile (Sold) |
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RocketBox
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Joined: March 20, 2014
Posts: 354
Location: Boise, ID
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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i don't think removing the pan will allow you to see whats going on. If i remember right, there is a large plate and all kinds of other stuff preventing any real view of anything. If i remember, there is some play (fore and aft) in the pump spline, but once engaged and installed properly it clicks into place. Nothing looks damaged in your photo that i can see... but then again - i just did this one time and it went just as the bentleys described it, so i didn't pay too much attention.
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84 Vanagon - tintop, 1.9L wbx. Complete Rebuild done August 2014. 2000~ miles on it so far... SOLD
80 Vanagon Camper ASI Riveria - subaru 2.2 conversion project. 1993 Subary legacy donor car + Riveria = AWESOME! |
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BlueNorthWesty
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Joined: October 24, 2014
Posts: 348
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Taking off the pan won't reveal anything except the differential and the outer shaft:
You have to separate the gear box from the transaxle. It's not very hard to do and it helps to stand the transaxle on end. I placed mine on a block of wood gearbox down/differential up, and undid the bolts holding the two together. They just slide apart. Then you can remove the pump shaft from the other side. From what I remember it isn't possible to remove it from the engine side.
This is what you'll see from the gearbox side of the final drive:
In this photo I removed the pump shaft (top of photo). This way you can inspect the splines on the gearbox side of the shafts before going deeper into the gearbox if you have to.
_________________
1984 Medium Blue Vanagon Westfalia 2WD w/ rebuilt Auto, Peloquin differential, 3.27 R&P gears, 2002 Subaru 2.5L engine, Girling G60 front brake upgrade, PS, power mirrors
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=610481&highlight= |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Somewhere on here, I've read a thread about installing this shaft, of it properly engaging inside the unit.........
I cannot find it..... Maybe I dreamt it? 
It may do you well to search for it.
Dave |
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AtlasShrugged
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Joined: October 30, 2008
Posts: 1605
Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| jpstewart19 wrote: |
So I tried to pull out the pump shaft to inspect, but it wont come out all the way. It comes out about 1/2 way and then takes the turbine shaft out with it. The turbine shaft then comes out quite a bit but also not all the way, which I assume is correct. So I'm not sure why the pump shaft wont come out.
Now the turbine shaft will not go all the way back in, similar to the photo I found below (not mine).
The pump shaft, if I try to put it back in, when I twist it, it seems to line up gears, but then goes beyond it, causing the original symptom of being too deep. What normally stops the shaft from going to deep?
If I take off the pan on the bottom of the differential, would I be able to see what is going on?
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The turbine shaft must aline and engage with the clutch pack back in the transmission and a planetary at the same time. It is fiddly as there are some steel sealing rings on the turbine shaft too. The sealing rings or transmission are easily damaged if you try and force (hammer) the turbine assembly back into position.
Dont know why your pump shaft will not come all the way out. Could be bent..bad news..or the transmissions did have an anti-drain-back seal on the pump shaft. I've never seen the ADBS except in the parts book. Most ADBS were blown or lost in service. If yours has a ADBS it may be holding the end of the pump shaft. That would make sense if the pump shaft only comes half way.
Anyways..the pump shaft must be removed..then spin the turbine shaft with your fingers and GENTLY tap on the turbine shaft with a plastic hammer. It could take a minute..and once all the bits back in the transmission aline with the turbine shaft..it will drop into place.
If this will not work, you will have to remove the transmission from the differential and find out what is wrong. Not too big a deal..four 13mm nuts and a buddy to help. Good time to replace the back to back seals if you have not don so already. |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| AtlasShrugged wrote: |
Dont know why your pump shaft will not come all the way out. Could be bent..bad news..or the transmissions did have an anti-drain-back seal on the pump shaft. I've never seen the ADBS except in the parts book. Most ADBS were blown or lost in service. If yours has a ADBS it may be holding the end of the pump shaft. That would make sense if the pump shaft only comes half way. |
There is an anti drain back valve hidden behind the inner pinion seal. It can be damaged in the act of removing the seal. With a damaged valve the tranny will be sluggish for a few seconds when put into gear after sitting overnight. There may be other ADB systems that I am not aware of. |
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MarkWard
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Location: Retired South Florida
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kourt
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Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1948
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:48 am Post subject: |
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In cases such as this, it's much more likely that the outer two shafts are not properly seated than the pump shaft being "too far" in for some reason. Make sure your outer shafts are properly seated. In other words, they both might be able to seat about 1cm further into the transaxle, thus leaving you with the proper amount of exposure on the pump shaft. Look at the most likely scenario first, and rule it out. This is the most likely scenario.
kourt |
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AtlasShrugged
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Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:47 am Post subject: |
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The pump shaft really can't go back too far. It rides in the ATF pump and is keyed into a drive cog at the back of the pump.
It is important to be sure the pump shaft is seated back inside the ATF pump. If it is not fully seated and the pump shaft splines are not engaged with the drive cog inside the pump..then it will damage the pump when you push the torque converter on.
That illustration with the pump shaft...on a Vanagon the hand drawn "mine" is what my Vanagon looked like.
Like I said, if the pump shaft was not exchanged out and the Vanagon Auto was working prior to dis-assembly..then you can not seat the pump shaft too far inside the ATF pump. |
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geodude
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Joined: May 24, 2012
Posts: 372
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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It sure looks like your other shafts aren't seated correctly. The middle one is sticking much further out than mine did when I did this. It should be flush with the outer shaft.
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1991 Multivan — the basket case |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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My concern about your pump shaft setting so deep is this......
If it wasn't engaged with the oil pump spline at the rear (front of Van) of the case ......
When you drew the engine together with the mounting hardware........ SOMETHING HAD TO GIVE WAY.
Im guessing you damaged the pump spline area? Pushed the spline receiver off of the pump? Bent that area of the pump?
Does your shaft end that was in the pump show any signs of forceful interaction? Scrapes, scratches, dents?
Not having any vehicle motion screams that the pump was not spinning.
I've never had one of these apart so I really don,t know how the spline attaches to the pump drum..... Rivets? Screws? Press fit? Welded?
Sorry to say .....
But......
I'm guessing that NO...... Your transmission is NOT ok.
Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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djkeev
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djkeev
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djkeev
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