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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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<<As far as the plenum mods (1 yr later) the AC pretty much never gets cranked beyond 2nd speed, air flow up front is great, the system is quiet...and my wife still asks me to turn it off >>
Here is the answer, the best indication of what's happening with a direct drive set up, and the best barometer of how the plenum is working.
When the other half is howling it's too cold.
But, I suppose if I resided at the end of the road 30 miles south of the north pole, I'd be bitching too that it was too cold up front too ( or anywhere in the Van for that matter) with the AC blowing on the back of my neck.
Good one. _________________ T.K. |
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denwood Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2012 Posts: 1047 Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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We're "blessed" to see -35C in the winter..but we do get up to 35C during summer. Truth be told our last trip to Minnesota driving all day in 95F with a cranky wife and two heat stressed kids was the tipping point for even getting the AC working. Never again. The AC project is all done. _________________ Cheers,
Dennis Wood
The Grape |
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SyncroGhia Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2009 Posts: 2458 Location: Highnam, UK
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:35 am Post subject: |
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We are currently away in North Cornwall enjoying some lovely weather.
However, the journey down here (4 hours worth) was very warm and there is little or no air flow to the back of the van where my Son and Wife sit.
The need to get this system installed and working has just been moved up the priority list!
MG _________________ T3 Syncro 16 S6 Westfalia Limey SOLD
T3 Syncro 6x6 SOLD
T3 RS6 Bluestar
T3 Tristar Syncro 16 SOLD
T3 Tristar Syncro RHD SOLD |
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kuleinc Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2007 Posts: 1604 Location: East Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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We (sort of) recently went to the grand canyon and back through death valley and Las Vegas. A/C without plenum was awesome. And this is with the sub optimal R134, still need to redo it with redtek...
I also changed the seal for the westy roof that touches the van roof. This made a big difference in the ability of the A/C to keep the van cool (versus last summer). I was obviously losing cold air or letting hot air in through this roof seal. If yours is iffy, I'd change it. It did not leak water, just air at speed. _________________ Check out our Our youtube channel: Https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-EbskIxNm6SYzsq4ugG81A
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496946 1987 VW Vanagon Westfalia with 1.8T |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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The source for the most AC defeating air is direct outa the open fresh air intake vent, & the faulty heater valve feeding the coolant to the front heater core.
Front floorboard insulation is good too--
Get these dialed in--the AC will work a bunch easier yet--even the with the WallyWorld, econo, low performance, 134-Alternative in the lines. _________________ T.K. |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:35 pm Post subject: Plenum/vent housing: why so ^#%^#ing wide? |
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I read through this thread yesterday and while tackling other miscellany, I familiarized myself with this thing. I see no reason why it had to be so wide as to take up shelf space. Mine seems to work, as far as moving air goes, but why not just reuse the vents over the sliding door and make that thing smaller? That gets the cold air a lot closer to the driver.
I don't know I will remove it, if I will use the A/C that much. But now I begrudge the space it takes up, if nothing else. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Well, after a trip through the high desert of eastern Washington and up the concrete canyon of I-5 in 95°F, I gave the a/c a test and was rewarded with a shower of black foam but no airflow. So that misbegotten thing came out just now. Pro-tip: if you're not interested in a non-destructive/re-useable removal, don't sweat removing the shelf over the galley. Those two screws can be removed with the residual shards of plastic once you remove the rest of it.
I turned on the fan post-removal and almost hit my head on the windshield, it was blowing so hard. It's hella gusty at 4 and very solid at 2. So that thing is out for keeps. Assuming the a/c itself is any good, I might see if there isn't a way to bring some of that lovely coolth upfront more directly with some diy ductwork.
I can totally both sides of the debate here, that a properly-tuned and maintained (maybe even sanely designed?) air distribution box with working a/c would be enough. But absent that, getting rid of the suboptimal air distributor is an option. I think decoupling the a/c and cooling from the distribution would clear things up. It's not so much two sides as two different things. I'm having the same thing with the dashboard vents: they heat on all settings, making them useless right now. Once I figure out to turn off the heat and while fan blows I might be a tad more comfortable. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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campism Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007 Posts: 4485 Location: Richmond VA
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Paulbeard wrote: |
I'm having the same thing with the dashboard vents: they heat on all settings, making them useless right now. Once I figure out to turn off the heat and while fan blows I might be a tad more comfortable. |
Dash vents should bring in only outside air. Nothing else should be coming through them. If you close them (flip the little knurled knob on the side of each vent) then you won't be getting outside air of any temperature and if your A/C is blowing cold from behind you that will come up front and cool you down. Don't use the front fan switch or the one for the rear (underseat, if your van has this one) heater. Use only the A/C fan switch. _________________ '87 Westy in Wolfram Grey Metallic |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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campism wrote: |
Paulbeard wrote: |
I'm having the same thing with the dashboard vents: they heat on all settings, making them useless right now. Once I figure out to turn off the heat and while fan blows I might be a tad more comfortable. |
Dash vents should bring in only outside air. Nothing else should be coming through them. If you close them (flip the little knurled knob on the side of each vent) then you won't be getting outside air of any temperature and if your A/C is blowing cold from behind you that will come up front and cool you down. Don't use the front fan switch or the one for the rear (underseat, if your van has this one) heater. Use only the A/C fan switch. |
Not those dash vents, the ones up on top. The fresh air vents I understood right away, i just wish they reached something other than my left knee.
I should be able to get outside air through the other vents, if the manual is accurate, heated or as it comes. The AC fan switch doesn't work without the AC itself (the snowflake knob) though I wish it did. Decoupling those would be good.
Since it seems that the controls don't work properly anyway, that the control flaps are in need of some TLC, it makes it hard to work out how the controls work. If you keep everything to the blue/cool side and still get hot air, it's disappointing. And two fan knobs along with those sliders? Seems unduly fiddly. The AC controls how cold and how much do you want? are about as complex as you need. Add "how hot/cold" to the mix and "where do you want it: feet, face or windshield" and that's all you need. Other German car makers were doing this before the Vanagon so modernity isn't really much of an argument.
I just tested the air movement without the wretched air distributor and I could feel air on my neck at the lowest setting. The air conditioner seems not to be working, as the air never got cold but I haven't checked the clutch to see if the compressor gets picked up or not. The radiator fan kicks on right away so that's working.
I would have to find another longer test to see if the blower was enough to keep things comfortable. Maybe the AC is not worth worrying about. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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campism wrote: |
Paulbeard wrote: |
I'm having the same thing with the dashboard vents: they heat on all settings, making them useless right now. Once I figure out to turn off the heat and while fan blows I might be a tad more comfortable. |
Dash vents should bring in only outside air. Nothing else should be coming through them. If you close them (flip the little knurled knob on the side of each vent) then you won't be getting outside air of any temperature |
That changed in 1988 where those vents were then used for heated air.
http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=311 _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Syncro Jael Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013 Posts: 2204 Location: Utah
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Westfalia A/C vents & removing plenum |
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After doing some work on the A/C system I decided to test things out before re-installing the plenum roof vent system.
What I found is what you have all known for years! I get as much air circulation on setting 2 as I did on 4 with the roof plenum. Now I don't need to run the 12v kicker fans that I had behind the front seats to feel the cool air. We have actually tested it out in 98Ί temps and it has made a huge difference on how the front passengers feel cooled by the rear mount A/C. With all the previous posts on this thread, it makes you wonder why they designed it that way. If I am getting too much volume of air through the evaporator, then just turn the damn blower speed down. It uses less amps and feels much better than before. Sorry for those who don't agree, but try it on your own then tell me which "feels" cooler. And my roof cleaned up nicely using "Roll Off". I use this down at the marina and it works great!
So I thought since it is now (SUMMER) and hot that this thread might be useful to others.
Here is my quick fix for the vent cover. It is nice having a brother and shop with a CNC machine to cut metal. Then I finished it with a gray hammered finish.
Happy Summer Driving everyone!
_________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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sandcough Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2011 Posts: 80 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Westfalia A/C vents & removing plenum |
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I removed my plenum as well. Much better air movement to the front. It's nice getting better performance by simplifying. |
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epaddler Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2010 Posts: 222 Location: Slippery Rock
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Westfalia A/C vents & removing plenum |
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I just finished my AC project and thought I would post a photo. I had to recently remove the plenum to drop the AC box to clean out years of accumulated mouse nest. After reading this thread I decided to leave it off and try it out. I am very happy that I did and have no plans to reinstall it. I used some 1/8 inch plywood I had lying around to manufacture the piece you see covering the holes and notch where the plenum was attached. After much looking at heater and ac vents at the various big box stores, I ended up cutting a piece out of a rain gutter screen. I figured it would cause the least amount of disruption of that welcome cold air. For the paint I found a spray can of Rustoleum American Accents satin granite at Walmart. It matches the camper colors pretty well.
_________________ 1989 Syncro Westy
My build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=450246 |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Westfalia A/C vents & removing plenum |
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Thanks for the 2016 additions to this thread. I revived my a/c this year and am ready to give this mod a try. The benefit of better air flow at same or lower fan speeds is compelling. I also like the approaches to finishing the cabinet face. I'm hoping to report back this weekend. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Westfalia A/C vents & removing plenum |
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I want to remove the black vents from the plenum.
Can this be done without dropping the plenum?
Anyone?
_________________ 1990 Westy Full Camper |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Westfalia A/C vents & removing plenum |
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You probably won't be happy with the results if your plenum is full of dessicated foam as mine was. The whole &^^(*&ing mess needs to come out. You can redo the routing/diversion channels with something better and replace it or just leave it out and enjoy the headroom and unhindered breeze.
I think they just pop out with some tabs to hold them, if memory serves. If you don't see screws, that would be the way of it. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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davevickery Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005 Posts: 2887 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Westfalia A/C vents & removing plenum |
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pdm777 wrote: |
I want to remove the black vents from the plenum.
Can this be done without dropping the plenum?
Anyone?
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Yah it is a standard snap in type tab on each end. You can see a gap at both ends of each vent. Slide a flat blade screw driver in that slot and push in towards the center of the vent (not towards the back of the van) and twist the screwdiriver or pry the vent out using another flat blade.
I think PaulBeard is probbaly right, that it won't help much compared to free flowing, but easy enough to try.
What I thought of doing is making a removable duct that hangs up there and just hooks around the poptop latch up front so the air comes out up front. Take it out when camping, and put it back before hitting the road. The breeze on 3 is nice but a little loud and I only need cool air up front. I think with vents up front #2 fan speed would be enough and it is nice and quiet. |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Westfalia A/C vents & removing plenum |
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davevickery wrote: |
What I thought of doing is making a removable duct that hangs up there and just hooks around the poptop latch up front so the air comes out up front. Take it out when camping, and put it back before hitting the road. The breeze on 3 is nice but a little loud and I only need cool air up front. I think with vents up front #2 fan speed would be enough and it is nice and quiet. |
GET OUT OF MY MIND
I wondered if a conduit from the blower to the vents at the top of the passenger side would bring cold air through the doors and out the dash. A length of collapsible vacuum cleaner hose might be worth testing. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Westfalia A/C vents & removing plenum |
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I deleted the plenum yesterday. Verdict? This is a great mod and exceeded expectations!
Everything folks say about getting much more cold air to the front of the van is true. The fan moves so much air that I'm doubtful that I'll use speed 4 again. 2 seems to provide about as much flow as 3 did previously while being much quieter.
Another benefit is that it seems the quality of the airflow is better in that the flow is distributed more generally as opposed to more directionally out of the vents. My impression is that it's a wall of air versus a spot of cold air and the result is broader distribution of air.
I think VW added the plenum to improve air flow around the rear seat passengers while compromising flow to the front of the van.
I do like the idea of a simple duct going to the front of the van but the plenum-delete is a notable improvement that may not need additional enhancements. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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baltik Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2015 Posts: 440
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Westfalia A/C vents & removing plenum |
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Has anyone taken temp readings at the rear passenger seating to see how much temps rise by removing the plenum? |
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