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247vws Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2004 Posts: 622 Location: the Dune Buggy Archives
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:51 am Post subject: Anyone running a Buggy with a narrowed beam and no shocks?? |
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Is anyone running a narrowed beam without shocks??
I have a buddy considering going to a 6" narrowed beam without shocks.
John _________________ 1958 Boss Bug "Coke Buggy"
1967 Manx #M2762C907E
1967 SandRover T Buggy "Rat Trap"
1966 VW Beetle "Rose"
1974 VW Beetle "SunBug"
The best FORUM for dune buggy information worldwide is.... www.dunebuggyarchives.com
http://www.dunebuggyarchives.com/forum/forum_show.pl |
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LouisB Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2004 Posts: 1027 Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: |
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I know a few guys in Europe with Manx type buggies running without any front shocks but they have stock width beams. Taking six inches out of the beam would make it a trike though, wouldn't it?
--louis _________________ Louis Brooks
'67 Manx II
Old people at weddings always poke me and say "Your next." So, I started doing the same to them at funerals. |
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Not an answer to your question, but I'd advise against it. Will post more later when not on iPhone. _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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Mr. Unpopular Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3715 Location: Tampa Florida
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:52 am Post subject: |
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From researching here for my full weight bug, narrowed beams get very stiff because you are shortening the torsion bars which takes away the amount of twist you get from them. This allows bugs to run narrowed beams with no shocks.
The problem with a buggy is, they are so light on the front that a stock front end is already too stiff.
I would recommend either going with air shocks in the front and no torsions, or removing torsions to get the desired spring rate. Removing torsions will be pretty frustrating though because it's a time consuming messy job. _________________ "In any racing engine, the nearer you are to it disintegrating, the better it's performance will be"
-Keith Duckworth, creator of the Ford/Cosworth DFV |
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manxcraig Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2006 Posts: 617 Location: pendelton (indianapolis) indiana
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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What would he do for a fuel tank? _________________ 69 Meyers Manx II on 65 pan, 1 owner !
WANTED, Meyers Manx license plate frames, repo OK, don't like the new smiles per miles ones. |
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247vws Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2004 Posts: 622 Location: the Dune Buggy Archives
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Florida_Buggy wrote: |
From researching here for my full weight bug, narrowed beams get very stiff because you are shortening the torsion bars which takes away the amount of twist you get from them. This allows bugs to run narrowed beams with no shocks.
The problem with a buggy is, they are so light on the front that a stock front end is already too stiff.
I would recommend either going with air shocks in the front and no torsions, or removing torsions to get the desired spring rate. Removing torsions will be pretty frustrating though because it's a time consuming messy job. |
I don't follow you here, how does air shocks or torsion springs tuck the wheels under the fenders? His issue is with the wheels being wider than the fenders.
We talked about a narrowed beam because I have thought about doing it myself for the Cokebuggy. I agree the leaf stack would need to be cut to reduce the stiffness just as it can help a stock width beam. _________________ 1958 Boss Bug "Coke Buggy"
1967 Manx #M2762C907E
1967 SandRover T Buggy "Rat Trap"
1966 VW Beetle "Rose"
1974 VW Beetle "SunBug"
The best FORUM for dune buggy information worldwide is.... www.dunebuggyarchives.com
http://www.dunebuggyarchives.com/forum/forum_show.pl |
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247vws Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2004 Posts: 622 Location: the Dune Buggy Archives
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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manxcraig wrote: |
What would he do for a fuel tank? |
Thats the reason for no shocks. The beams that are 4" narrowed are available with no check towers, thus no shocks. It wouldn't interfere with the gas tank, I think... _________________ 1958 Boss Bug "Coke Buggy"
1967 Manx #M2762C907E
1967 SandRover T Buggy "Rat Trap"
1966 VW Beetle "Rose"
1974 VW Beetle "SunBug"
The best FORUM for dune buggy information worldwide is.... www.dunebuggyarchives.com
http://www.dunebuggyarchives.com/forum/forum_show.pl |
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247vws Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2004 Posts: 622 Location: the Dune Buggy Archives
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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LouisB wrote: |
I know a few guys in Europe with Manx type buggies running without any front shocks but they have stock width beams. Taking six inches out of the beam would make it a trike though, wouldn't it?
--louis |
Six inches isn't much really, when you consider adapters add 1 3/4" and then running vintage Cragar wheels 6" wide. _________________ 1958 Boss Bug "Coke Buggy"
1967 Manx #M2762C907E
1967 SandRover T Buggy "Rat Trap"
1966 VW Beetle "Rose"
1974 VW Beetle "SunBug"
The best FORUM for dune buggy information worldwide is.... www.dunebuggyarchives.com
http://www.dunebuggyarchives.com/forum/forum_show.pl |
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Narrow is ok. Just keep the shock towers and use the factory needle bearings. DO NOT switch out to eurathane bushings in the beam. You'll have to do some fiberglass trimming and metal fab to "tub" the gas tank around the towers. Also, reduce the torsion stack as mentioned.
Still on my iPhone... _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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Mr. Unpopular Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3715 Location: Tampa Florida
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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247vws wrote: |
Florida_Buggy wrote: |
From researching here for my full weight bug, narrowed beams get very stiff because you are shortening the torsion bars which takes away the amount of twist you get from them. This allows bugs to run narrowed beams with no shocks.
The problem with a buggy is, they are so light on the front that a stock front end is already too stiff.
I would recommend either going with air shocks in the front and no torsions, or removing torsions to get the desired spring rate. Removing torsions will be pretty frustrating though because it's a time consuming messy job. |
I don't follow you here, how does air shocks or torsion springs tuck the wheels under the fenders? His issue is with the wheels being wider than the fenders.
We talked about a narrowed beam because I have thought about doing it myself for the Cokebuggy. I agree the leaf stack would need to be cut to reduce the stiffness just as it can help a stock width beam. |
I guess I should've explained it better. What I was suggesting was to narrow the beam, but instead of using all of the torsion leaves when you narrow it, either convert to air shocks only (easily set ride height and spring stiffness) or pull leaves. _________________ "In any racing engine, the nearer you are to it disintegrating, the better it's performance will be"
-Keith Duckworth, creator of the Ford/Cosworth DFV |
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TC/TeamEvil Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2004 Posts: 1769
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Pull how many leaves and out of the top or bottom tube or both. I have a buddy who's in mid-build and looking to soften up his stock (with stock shocks) front end for a better around town ride quality.
T |
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Mr. Unpopular Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3715 Location: Tampa Florida
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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I can't see it mattering if they are pulled from the top or the bottom since they are connected by the spindle. How many? That's up to how much you narrow the beam, how stiff your shocks are (if any) and personal preference). _________________ "In any racing engine, the nearer you are to it disintegrating, the better it's performance will be"
-Keith Duckworth, creator of the Ford/Cosworth DFV |
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manxcraig Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2006 Posts: 617 Location: pendelton (indianapolis) indiana
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose that if all somebody was trying to do is offset the wheel adappters and disc brakes and keep the track stock it might be OK, but I hate the look of narrowed beams. Brake drums can be redrilled to elimnate the need for adapptors, and wheels can be ordered in special offsets you know. Sure be a lot cheaper and less work. _________________ 69 Meyers Manx II on 65 pan, 1 owner !
WANTED, Meyers Manx license plate frames, repo OK, don't like the new smiles per miles ones. |
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Mr. Unpopular Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3715 Location: Tampa Florida
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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disk brake kits that push the wheels out are much cheaper than the 0 offset versions. Plus some wheels only come in 5.5" or more widths and limited offset options. These will sit too far out on a stock front end and hit the fenders and look goofy. If you run a decent size tire, it will stick out even further and rub more.
So you can't pigeon hole all narrowed beams as bad looking, because some guys run a 4-5" narrowed beam and it looks almost stock. _________________ "In any racing engine, the nearer you are to it disintegrating, the better it's performance will be"
-Keith Duckworth, creator of the Ford/Cosworth DFV |
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63ratster Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2004 Posts: 77
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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I have been running a 4" narrowed beam in my Clam Digger for about 6 months now w/o shocks.... and i HATE it! My beam does use the outer urethane bushings and the buggy is just too light for the bushings to allow for smooth movement up and down. And while driving at -say 55MPH- the trailing arms simply can not react to variations in the road's surface quickly enough without the shocks; thus resulting in a very unpleasant steering feel. I have recently fabbed up some shock mounts to run lowered shocks and it has helped remedy some of the above issues. This winter I am going to narrowed my original beam and use the outer needle bearings for much smoother movement of the trailing arms. All this being said, my next beam will also be narrowed 4", but will have outer needle bearings,lowered shocks, and probably two sets of half-leaves removed from the spring pack(one on the top and one on the bottom). I hope this helps. |
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manxcraig Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2006 Posts: 617 Location: pendelton (indianapolis) indiana
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Florida_Buggy wrote: |
So you can't pigeon hole all narrowed beams as bad looking, because some guys run a 4-5" narrowed beam and it looks almost stock. |
To me they ALL look bad, even my son's 4 in on his 64 Beetle, I'd put the stock beam back in it so fast........
But it would be a boring world if we all liked the same things.
Big tires will fit if the wheels are right.
_________________ 69 Meyers Manx II on 65 pan, 1 owner !
WANTED, Meyers Manx license plate frames, repo OK, don't like the new smiles per miles ones. |
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Mr. Unpopular Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3715 Location: Tampa Florida
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Some people would say your buggy sits about 8" too high too, but like you said, variety is the spice of life. _________________ "In any racing engine, the nearer you are to it disintegrating, the better it's performance will be"
-Keith Duckworth, creator of the Ford/Cosworth DFV |
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manxcraig Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2006 Posts: 617 Location: pendelton (indianapolis) indiana
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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It's set up to drive, not for car shows, I have to deal with Indiana roads. Drives like a Cadillac at 80 MPH, ask John. _________________ 69 Meyers Manx II on 65 pan, 1 owner !
WANTED, Meyers Manx license plate frames, repo OK, don't like the new smiles per miles ones. |
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Mr. Unpopular Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3715 Location: Tampa Florida
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Oh I'm sure it does drive nice. I like all buggies, no matter what their ride height is. But if someone wants your wheels, and the car to sit alot lower, they would have to narrow the beam, that's all I'm saying. _________________ "In any racing engine, the nearer you are to it disintegrating, the better it's performance will be"
-Keith Duckworth, creator of the Ford/Cosworth DFV |
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manxcraig Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2006 Posts: 617 Location: pendelton (indianapolis) indiana
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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I understand getting the tire over under the taller part of the fender in a bug but I dont see where a narrowed beam would gain you anything in a buggy, the fenders are flat.
And I have lowered the front about 2 inches sense that photo was taken, no problems. _________________ 69 Meyers Manx II on 65 pan, 1 owner !
WANTED, Meyers Manx license plate frames, repo OK, don't like the new smiles per miles ones. |
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