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Mooosman Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2007 Posts: 269 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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oldbritishcarnut wrote: |
I also use 3-bond. No leaks! |
No leaks on mine either. The stuff is a little more 'runny' than other stuff, but a little goes a long way. Seals just as well on VW stuff as it does with air cooled motorcycle stuff.
_________________ (o\ ! /o) '69 Beetle---Subaru EJ22 powered---SOLD
(o\ ! /o) '64 Ruby Red patina bug---40 horses of FURY! |
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RockCrusher Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2010 Posts: 4596 Location: Parkesburg, PA
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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56bugdan wrote: |
Have any of you ever tried using the old Indian Head sealant? Just wondering because I was gonna try it on my 2333 when it goes back together. If not then where are you guys finding the Permatex Aviation stuff? Never seen it at the local auto parts places. |
I use the Indian head.....all I use...all I've ever used...on the VW case halves. NEVER had a single leak yet. On the negative side, it is a royal pain to clean off after it is dried. Don't use the dopey dauber in the lid. Cut that crap off with a side cutter. Use the cheap plastic handled model paint brushes like you can buy in quantity at the dollar store.
RC _________________ [email protected] Please use email for all general inquiries.
I will be happy to speak to anyone who has a serious inquiry (meaning real potential business for RC enterprises) or a parts order. Due to machining noise causing missed calls all calls will be returned promptly. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26730 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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3-bond is now a brand of sealers, like permatex
it's like saying you drive a ford..........a ford what?
list the actual product number please |
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Mooosman Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2007 Posts: 269 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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modok wrote: |
3-bond is now a brand of sealers, like permatex
it's like saying you drive a ford..........a ford what?
list the actual product number please |
Three-Bond #1211 is what I used, though I have had good luck with Yamabond 4/Hondabond 4 (same thing). I have also heard of Porsche guys using the older Three-Bond #1104 or #1194.
You can also use the Fujibond Subaru OEM sealer (the gray one). Subaru cases go together just like VWs, and Subaru uses the gray Fujibond sealer on the case halves from the factory. I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the Three-Bond stuff on a VW engine; motorcycle engines have been using this stuff for years with no problems. Hell, a lot of Japanese bikes use almost no actual gaskets in their engines at all, just metal to metal with a thin coat of Three-Bond in between.
Nick _________________ (o\ ! /o) '69 Beetle---Subaru EJ22 powered---SOLD
(o\ ! /o) '64 Ruby Red patina bug---40 horses of FURY! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26730 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks
i scraped some of that off a subaru case yesterday, looks the same as permatex 'high torque" grey. |
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A Capps Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2004 Posts: 36 Location: Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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I am having a hard time finding aviation Permatex, but I did find it at O'Reilly. Costy - $8.99. Ridiculous. So this is what we always used back in the early seventies when building engines. Never anything out of a tube. People were starting to use silicon. Mostly was blue in those days. I liked Aviation.
Is there anything new that spreads on with a brush? I have no idea what is out there - I dont want to use tube silicon. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26730 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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WAY steep for that particular product, but......all the other sealers cost more. maybe that's why they jacked it up, they want you to buy the new stuff. Don't. Just the smell of it is worth 4$ If it takes you back
Pocket a flashlight or ect. on the way out? I won't tell. |
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A Capps Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2004 Posts: 36 Location: Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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I will be using a new can of aviation3 on everything. Except the rocker cover gaskets of course which are standard grease both sides only. |
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R-Baja Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2008 Posts: 164 Location: Out West
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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Aren't the Three Bond types of sealant silicone?
When using Curil K2 is it applied to both halve of the case? |
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Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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Brian wrote: |
R-Baja wrote: |
Aren't the Three Bond types of sealant silicone?
When using Curil K2 is it applied to both halve of the case? |
I know you're looking for a simple answer, but take a look here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=691163
I did this method with Curil, worked well. |
Cool! It should work with most liquid or pastes...they all have different shear rates and viscosity....but have never tried it with a non-curing sealer. Nice to hear!
Ray |
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SRP1 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 4340
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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I've changed from Three Bond 1211 after using for the last 30 years. I'm now using Permatex Motoseal. I'm very impressed with it's long term leak free sealing ability.
The last few builds have stayed totally dry over the long term, as where the Three Bond while a really really good sealant would have some slight moisture seep through in spots. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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SRP1 wrote: |
I've changed from Three Bond 1211 after using for the last 30 years. I'm now using Permatex Motoseal. I'm very impressed with it's long term leak free sealing ability.
The last few builds have stayed totally dry over the long term, as where the Three Bond while a really really good sealant would have some slight moisture seep through in spots. |
There are so many new and improved products out there that its hard to keep up with them. I had never heard of Permatex Motoseal.
It sounds like an interesting product. Its solvent based.....not an RTV.....sounds to be in the similar family as Aviation #3 and Indian head. But.....the Aviation #3 and Indian are almost identical for ingredients and are different solvents than the Motoseal.
The other two are slightly higher temp by about 50°....not an issue for case sealing.
The motoseal uses titanium dioxide as its filler and Aviation 3 uses magnesium silicate. Indian head lists no filler.
Betting motoseal has better film strength. I will have to try some. Ray |
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sgmalt46 Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2005 Posts: 1293 Location: south san francisco
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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I have used motoseal on Harley Davidson motors. good stuff. really for air-cooled motorcycle engines .hench the name. made for high temps and vibration.
if it can keep a shitty Harley engine from leaking you know it's good !
Steve _________________ 55 deluxe 23 window bus
64 crew cab
55 rag top beetle
66 beetle
71 square back (sold) ! good luck with it Henry!
46 beetle 552nd royal army service corps CCG |
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Paul Jr Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2018 Posts: 458 Location: PA
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: silicone |
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tandm1999 wrote: |
Thank you max fo the tip on not being in a hurry while assembling the case, you are 100% correct. However I am still wondering if anyone has a good reason for not using it other than "just don't do it". I've seen lots of people that use it and lov it and lots that hate it. For those that don't Why not? |
I am new to this and just learning but I have an uncle who has been building Air cooled VW engines for many years. He had me help clean two that came in for internal repairs/rebuilds that had silicone used on them.
He told me it almost always gets loose inside and finds its way into oil gallies and blocks oil flow.
He is spot on as when I opened up the gallies to clean them for the rebuild both blocks had it in the gallies and the one was so blocked he actually determined that it was the reason for the bearing Failiure.
Both engines had it stuck to the sump screen also and I was told that many times depending on the type used that even if it gets caught by the screen it will eventually break down some and get threw.
As directed by him and many on here I will not use it except to seal the calendars and then sparingly.
Good luck! |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: silicone |
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Paul Jr wrote: |
tandm1999 wrote: |
Thank you max fo the tip on not being in a hurry while assembling the case, you are 100% correct. However I am still wondering if anyone has a good reason for not using it other than "just don't do it". I've seen lots of people that use it and lov it and lots that hate it. For those that don't Why not? |
I am new to this and just learning but I have an uncle who has been building Air cooled VW engines for many years. He had me help clean two that came in for internal repairs/rebuilds that had silicone used on them.
He told me it almost always gets loose inside and finds its way into oil gallies and blocks oil flow.
He is spot on as when I opened up the gallies to clean them for the rebuild both blocks had it in the gallies and the one was so blocked he actually determined that it was the reason for the bearing Failiure.
Both engines had it stuck to the sump screen also and I was told that many times depending on the type used that even if it gets caught by the screen it will eventually break down some and get threw.
As directed by him and many on here I will not use it except to seal the calendars and then sparingly.
Y
Good luck! |
That only happens....if you use silicone poorly or incorrectly. It takes maybe a .002" thick layer.....maximum. And....since even that will squeeze out to about .001" ....usually less.....there is aboslutely no need to spread it in the entire width of the case edge. In this way....there is nothing squeezing out from between the gap to get into the case and oil.
99% of people "goop" it up squeezing out a "bead" like they are sealing in a bathtub. Not how it should be used. A practiced person can stipple it on with a fingertip to right at .002" thick.
I prefer to use a tool to make it even thinner like in that link. By the way.....the rosin in Aviation #3, indian head....and others....is not soluable in oil. Those will screw up a bearing just as fast as silicone......so why dont they screw up bearings?
Because the way they are made....about 60-75% solvent that evaporates away and low solids....it's virtually impossible to put them on too thick.
Its the application method that matters with silicone. Its not a failure of the product....its a failure of who applies it and how. Ray |
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rrcade Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010 Posts: 735 Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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Silicone is awful for everything
Put a bead on a piece of metal, let it dry then see how easily it pulls right off. It has No adhesion _________________ CHEAP - FAST - RELIABLE
You can only pick two of the above. |
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slalombuggy Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9128 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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rrcade wrote: |
Silicone is awful for everything
Put a bead on a piece of metal, let it dry then see how easily it pulls right off. It has No adhesion |
Which is why I use Right Stuff where I need a thicker sealant such as cylinder bases and alternator stands.
brad |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Silicone to seal engine case |
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rrcade wrote: |
Silicone is awful for everything
Put a bead on a piece of metal, let it dry then see how easily it pulls right off. It has No adhesion |
Totally untrue. If that happens....then
A. you used the wrong silicone and
B. you did not prep the surface properly.
There are thousands of different formulations of silicone. I have some right now that needs to be sandblasted off of any aluminum it goes on.
Have you ever done actual adhesion tests with RTV's?....or any sealers for that matter? I do these type of tests for a living. I can tell you that most automotive grade RTV's have adhesion specs when properly applied and cured on properly prepped surfaces that exceed most paints and adhesives.
By the way applying a large cross section "bead" is the weakest form of applying virtually any elastomer. The RTV, adhesive or coating usually fails in the middle of the bead and not at its surface. Thin uniform coats are the way. Ray |
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Paul Jr Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2018 Posts: 458 Location: PA
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Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:23 am Post subject: Re: silicone |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
Paul Jr wrote: |
tandm1999 wrote: |
Thank you max fo the tip on not being in a hurry while assembling the case, you are 100% correct. However I am still wondering if anyone has a good reason for not using it other than "just don't do it". I've seen lots of people that use it and lov it and lots that hate it. For those that don't Why not? |
I am new to this and just learning but I have an uncle who has been building Air cooled VW engines for many years. He had me help clean two that came in for internal repairs/rebuilds that had silicone used on them.
He told me it almost always gets loose inside and finds its way into oil gallies and blocks oil flow.
He is spot on as when I opened up the gallies to clean them for the rebuild both blocks had it in the gallies and the one was so blocked he actually determined that it was the reason for the bearing Failiure.
Both engines had it stuck to the sump screen also and I was told that many times depending on the type used that even if it gets caught by the screen it will eventually break down some and get threw.
As directed by him and many on here I will not use it except to seal the calendars and then sparingly.
Y
Good luck! |
That only happens....if you use silicone poorly or incorrectly. It takes maybe a .002" thick layer.....maximum. And....since even that will squeeze out to about .001" ....usually less.....there is aboslutely no need to spread it in the entire width of the case edge. In this way....there is nothing squeezing out from between the gap to get into the case and oil.
99% of people "goop" it up squeezing out a "bead" like they are sealing in a bathtub. Not how it should be used. A practiced person can stipple it on with a fingertip to right at .002" thick.
I prefer to use a tool to make it even thinner like in that link. By the way.....the rosin in Aviation #3, indian head....and others....is not soluable in oil. Those will screw up a bearing just as fast as silicone......so why dont they screw up bearings?
Because the way they are made....about 60-75% solvent that evaporates away and low solids....it's virtually impossible to put them on too thick.
Its the application method that matters with silicone. Its not a failure of the product....its a failure of who applies it and how. Ray |
I assure you I was shown the proper way to apply silicone, and one of those two engines I helped clean up sure seemed as if it was used sparingly. The other looked like it was caked on. Both engines had it in the gallies, so for me that makes a big difference as I have seen no problems from other sealers and I have not been told of any bearing stand off issues that happened from other type sealers.
My conclusion is simple, we have no known issues from other sealers, the other sealers apply in a better manner, don’t dry in the tube, are easier to fix a mistake when you do accidentally put a little too much, touch something you shouldn’t, and doesn’t seem to end up everywhere no matter how hard you try to be careful.
So for me I will avoid silicone while building any of these engines as I have been instructed and when buying something at a swap meet anything with it showing other than at the cylinder base automatically gets valued at a far lower rate. |
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